[00:00:13] Wendy Kendall: Welcome to the inspiring psychologists podcast, and today we are talking about embracing Support, about the healing power of outsourcing, and it may sound like an unlikely support, It may sound like an unlikely source of healing, but this topic really comes up so often when I speak to our clients, which is the challenge of moving from doing everything yourself in your private practice to being willing and open and able to trust and negotiate and work with other people, other suppliers. And it raises so many emotional challenges for us. So today, I'm cohosting with Michelle Minnikin, who is Chief pirate, I believe.
00:01:28 Discussing Outsourcing and Bringing Others into the Business
[00:01:28] Michelle Minnikin: Yes. I'm the co pirate. I've got yes.
[00:01:31] Wendy Kendall: Co pirate. Co co I pirate. Yes. I had you down as Chief pirate. I think that's really, like, where you stand in the hierarchy. No. Anyway
[00:01:39] Michelle Minnikin: No. So
[00:01:42] Wendy Kendall: Michelle is a long time friend, colleague, and a fellow psychologist who runs the Work Pirates Consultancy and is also the author of the book Good Girl Deprogramming. And, Michelle, Do a bit more introduction of yourself, please. Mhmm. What's beyond that?
[00:02:04] Michelle Minnikin: What is beyond that? There's so much. Woah. Wait. I was born in 19, I'm kidding. It's just a little bit of a podcast.
[00:02:15] Wendy Kendall: I'm just thinking, you you're kind of running your, business now for about 7 years, If I'm under if I'm remembering correctly.
[00:02:25] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. So 2016, I left my I keep calling it my proper job. This is a proper job. I don't think it's refer to non-working for myself as the proper job. So, yes, 2016. And then it took me a good 18 months to find you as one of your first your first people.
[00:02:44] Wendy Kendall: The first. Exactly. So, Michelle and I started working together in I think right at the start of, when I started helping psychologists in private Practice, which was at the beginning of 2018, and so I've really seen how your practice, your business has kind of evolved and how you Brought other people into your world, the universe of Michelle Minikin. So tell me a little bit about what you're Curious about, in terms of this, upcoming discussion, what things really kind of strike you about Outsourcing and bringing other people in.
00:03:23 Discussion on Asking for Help and Trusting Others in Business
[00:03:23] Michelle Minnikin: It's really interesting. So I Had this weird thought in my head that when I started working for myself, I had to be super independent, not need anybody, not Outsource anything, you know, because if somebody else touches it, everything might go wrong. So there was a lot of that perfectionism. And independence and to the point where I almost would rather chew my own arm off than asking for help. So It's been a period of time that you have to you can't do all of the things all the time without completely burning out. So there's there's a part of that, you know, good girl not asking for help stuff that
[00:04:06] Wendy Kendall: was Yes.
[00:04:08] Michelle Minnikin: Resonating very much with me. And then, And that you say all the time, isn't it? You wanna go fast, go it alone. Wanna go far, do it together.
[00:04:20] Wendy Kendall: Well, yeah, but I borrow it. It's an African saying, apparently, so I borrowed that. But, boy, I was attributing you.
[00:04:25] Case. Oh, goodness.
[00:04:29] Michelle Minnikin: So here we go. So yeah. So it's it's it's that, and it's but even looking at other The psychologist in private practice and other, you know, professionals across the whole board Asking for help and trusting other people to That's very it's it's a very critical thing because this is your means of making money and Paying the rental mortgage or Yeah. So, of course, you wanna get it right. And so many of us waited too long almost.
[00:05:04] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. That's the thing.
[00:05:05] Michelle Minnikin: Knew it as well.
[00:05:06] Wendy Kendall: Definitely. You have to take a leap of faith in other people. Mhmm. So today, to To help us think about this, I've invited Liz Talago and I'm going to just Invite Liz in now. And Liz, you and I started working together because we were Thinking about stories in our practices, but I know that, you know, one of the things that attracted me to kind of working with you and bringing you in as, You know, a a supplier, a, you know, somebody who's bringing some services into this practice.
[00:05:46] Wendy Kendall: You have a mental health background. You you then shifted your, practice over to content Strategy, if I'm getting that right. Mental health content strategy. And then you also launched, another a podcast where you Speak to other freelancers about their businesses. So it's from the other side of thinking about, I guess, How other people then work and and provide services. So tell us a bit about yourself as well, a bit, you know, beyond what I've just done. Hi.
[00:06:19] Liz Talago: Sure. Thanks, Wendy. Yes. So try to make a long story short. My background is in mental health and education, spent many years providing direct Services to students and families in a school based setting. And the arc of that career is one that will be familiar to many of you. I was very isolated in that role, part just because of the geography of the place where I live, the concentration of mental health providers to people. There just wasn't enough to go around, and burnout happened. And I shifted from providing that direct service to going into the corporate mental health setting, which is Quite a change of hats, and it was in that setting where I kind of learned the business of content strategy and the building of mental health businesses And learned to use kind of my clinical background in this very different way. Obviously, if you've ever listened to my podcast or a fan of my work, the Corporate setting was not built for Liz, and so I did not last long there. And like you, Michelle, I went out on my own in 2016, and I've been doing independent work Ever since. And my work is really around helping support startups, small businesses, solopreneurs in the mental and behavioral health Space, and that keeps me pretty busy. And it's really interesting because I was reflecting on my journey in preparation for this call, And there's so much of exactly what we're going to talk about today embedded in some of my own struggles around isolation.
[00:07:54] Liz Talago: On our show, we always say isolation is the enemy, and at the same time, I have this very real experience of creating an independent business, I I say in response to the workplace trauma that I experienced. So either not having any support And being isolated. And when you're doing things like crisis response, that's really scary, or just not having adequate support, like, Watch this video, and that's your professional development for the year. Mhmm. And so I had a lot of broken trust around the ways that other people could support me in my work. And over these years, I've had to rebuild my identity as a collaborator, reestablish what I think a healthy Collaborative relationship looks like both as a provider, a supporter of other business, and as someone who hires people to support me in my business. So Lots to say on that topic, but, I'm excited to be here talking to you, Wendy, especially because we're an example, I think, of when it works really well. And Yeah. What better evidence of that than you being a client of mine and a year and change later, we're here having a talk about that exact thing.
[00:09:07] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. And you you just kind of joined a bunch of dots for me when I Michelle's kind of nodding ahead as well because this whole series has been about healing through private practice, and we've talked about Career trauma. And we've talked about how sometimes, you know, as as kind of people who are attracted to this kind of field, we Sometimes bring a little bit of that wounded healer at least at the start of the journey as well. And and yet, For whatever reason and, I mean, you're saying that, you know, based in the USA. A lot of my clients are based in the UK. Michelle's an organizational psychologist. I'm an organizational psychologist. You've got a clinical background and this is meant to be psychology. We're meant to know I feel like we're meant to know how to fix this, and yet we have still so many experiences of toxic workplaces where we just can't Flourish. And then we do, as you said, we come into private practice because it's it's like the place that we that we create, which becomes a safe Place for us to start flourishing, and and then we have to repair the relationships. Yeah. And here we are.
[00:10:24] Liz Talago: Yeah. It can be.
[00:10:26] Michelle Minnikin: Right.
[00:10:27] Liz Talago: But we also if we're not intentional and we're not careful, we will bring with us some of those Yep. Ideas, Habits, norms that Exactly. Will will end up being again in the career that we ran screaming from If we're not vigilant about it. So Yeah. Ask me what I mean.
[00:10:48] Wendy Kendall: I I have a saying and I don't And I mean, it's my podcast so I can kinda say what I like on it right, but I have this saying which is, you know, don't be the asshole boss that you left To yourself, you know? To yourself. Exactly. Don't be that person to yourself and and then hopefully also not your suppliers that, that, you know, that you that you like you said, we end up repeating some of these patterns inadvertently. Yeah.
[00:11:18] Liz Talago: Yeah. And it's it's really hard to swim upstream as well. I wanna be conscious in making that comment that There is some personal responsibility and self awareness that's really important, but we are also awash in Yes. Patriarchy and capitalism, and, I try to be really intentional about not placing blame on individual providers And solopreneurs who are trying to break these systems that are so much they're so much bigger than us. Yeah. And what I like about both of your work is that it it seems to be actively working to dismantle some of those things, and I just couldn't love I couldn't love that more. So
[00:12:02] Michelle Minnikin: It's really fascinating. So when Wendy and I met, I was setting up my very professional organization psychology practice, and it was almost like I took what I'd done in work And tried to replicate it In my practice. And there was just this hilarious not that hilarious. This massive disconnect between I did I couldn't do social media for it because I just meh. I wasn't interested in having a proper, boring, professional psychology practice because it wasn't me. But I I did had to go through That too. I am one of those annoying people that have to learn the lesson themselves.
[00:12:45] Wendy Kendall: Learn it in the muscle.
[00:12:47] Michelle Minnikin: Yes. So it took, you know, it took me from 2018 well, 2016 to 2018 to to find Wendy, to To reading the the Be More Pirate book to when did we set up work? It was 2020. So it's I learn it eventually. It just takes a while, but it's all of that stuff you're talking about in terms of, you know, this is the capitalist model, and this is these are the things that People will buy from occupational psychologists. So these these are the only things that I can actually offer.
[00:13:17] Wendy Kendall: Mhmm. Yeah.
[00:13:19] Michelle Minnikin: It's just it's like shedding layers and layers of Crap.
[00:13:24] Wendy Kendall: Yay. Yeah.
[00:13:25] Michelle Minnikin: To get to where what what if somebody asked me I'm sure Wendy would have asked me, what do you actually want at that point? There were so much layers of toxicity and capitalism and patriarchy. And me being a good girl and and undiagnosed neurodivergence, I didn't know. I didn't know what I wanted at that point. So how can how could I, at that point, have Got the right people in to help me because I didn't even know what I wanted.
00:13:52 Exploring the Challenges of Embracing Authenticity in Professionalism
[00:13:52] Liz Talago: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:55] Wendy Kendall: And just And coming back to your point, Liz, because, you know, I make, and kind of coming round to your point as well, Michelle, with that because I make the joke about, you know, don't be a jerk to yourself. Don't be the jerk that you just left. But it to your point, Michelle, it's We just bring these these stereotype I was gonna say archetypes, but I don't know that they're archetypes. Types. I think they're kind of stereotypes and, you know, layers of BS that we've as you said, Michelle, it's, You know, we've picked up this idea of what's professionalism and we've picked up this idea of, what's best practice And we pick up these ideas around expectations. And then, you know, we end up treating ourselves badly. We end up Feeling as though we need to isolate ourselves to stay safe. I wonder what turns it around though. What helped it to turn around? Liz, coming to you.
[00:14:55] Liz Talago: Yeah. I think, like you, Michelle, I'm a learn the lessons the hard way kinda gal, and I think I just wanna normalize for listeners that it's really hard to be a version of something that you've never seen before. And I think in many ways, we're kinda stumbling in the dark. Like, intuitively, if we're listening to our bodies, listening to our minds, like, something isn't right when we're adopting some of those, you know, Extrapolative models. And I think having the courage to listen to that part of myself And pursue anyway, and in many ways, doing things in building my business that were completely at odds with everything that I had been taught A nice lady does, and a mental health professional does. Completely at odds. In fact, some of the messages I received around those choices, You know, I was promised that I would fail, and it wasn't until I came out on the other side of that and had this kind of corrective experience of, like, Oh, like, this feels so much better.
[00:15:09] Liz Talago: And I think in many ways, we're kinda stumbling in the dark. Like, intuitively, if we're listening to our bodies, listening to our minds, like, something isn't right when we're adopting some of those, you know, Extrapolative models. And I think having the courage to listen to that part of myself And pursue anyway, and in many ways, doing things in building my business that were completely at odds with everything that I had been taught A nice lady does, and a mental health professional does. Completely at odds. In fact, some of the messages I received around those choices, You know, I was promised that I would fail, and it wasn't until I came out on the other side of that and had this kind of corrective experience of, like, Oh, like, this feels so much better. They were wrong. Like, I know I I know what I need. I know what my clients need. I know that I have to choose between listening to my gut and my values and making a healthy bottom line. You know, There's all these false dichotomies that are set up, and they're really kind of like traps to trip you up and to keep you small and scared And upholding the status quo. And for me, it wasn't until I could push through all of that messaging and listen to myself and have that experience of, Oh, okay. I can trust myself. This works for me. This works for my business. This works for my clients. I want more of that, and that's really emboldening. And that's Easier said than done, obviously. And I will say that having collaborators, A really great group text of other women who own their own businesses to cheer you on. I didn't do that on my own. I had support, and that's a huge part of that story as well.
[00:16:54] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, yeah. Michelle, I'm just wondering about these, I mean, you talked there with Liz about the Being a good lady, Michelle I can imagine that spoke straight to you, you know, what does it mean to I think you said nice lady didn't you? And, and Michelle you Michelle you talk about, and wrote a book about being a good girl, and I'm really struck by what you said about All those messages that then keep us small and scared, but what they also do is undermine our trust in ourselves. And it's really hard to then branch out and trust other people. Yeah. When that fundamental self trust has been broached. Mhmm. Michelle, I'm just wondering about your perspective on some of that.
[00:17:39] Michelle Minnikin: Oh, it's all in the book. Yes.
[00:17:43] Wendy Kendall: It's it's
[00:17:46] Michelle Minnikin: There's there's so much in there in terms of us being completely out of trust with our bodies. And, No. Don't listen to our instinct. Don't listen to our gut because, you know, the the leaders are the ones that That are right. And these are the, you know, the business gurus from all of the fancy places, you know, tell people how to how to run the business. This is the right way as a Good business professional. Alright. I really struggled, mostly. And I I know I've had conversations with other people in the community, Wendy, Around psychologists and how we have to portray ourselves online.
[00:18:30] Wendy Kendall: Portray ourselves,
[00:18:31] Michelle Minnikin: you said. Yeah. Mhmm. And Yeah. How we have to maintain that kind of professionalism. Again, we're using that word. And Not bring ourselves into the story at all and make that, like, almost that professional distancing. Mhmm. And it took me Absolutely. Yes. And terror of being judged particularly by people within our community. And I would you know, we've talked about this as well, but the the sort of the imaginary beast in occupational psychology, I had had I had words with him, and he was lovely. The
[00:19:04] Liz Talago: first time
[00:19:05] Wendy Kendall: so many people were scared of because, you know,
[00:19:08] Michelle Minnikin: what happens if this person judges me? And we came up with a interesting angle that We've got a a patriarchal authority figure, internal psychology voice, That we somehow have picked it up from somewhere that we're all a little bit scared of. And as soon as you sort of slay that beast, And this this chap actually asked me, how do I get, you know, me as a critical voice out of people's heads? I'm like, But you can't.
[00:19:39] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So just to kind of share with Liz, obviously, I feel sometimes like The UK is like this little this this little island that where everybody kind of knows one another. It feels a little bit like that Inside psychology, particularly. And so especially in in places like LinkedIn or Facebook or where wherever, You know, there are there are people who are known to be what we might call robust, Challengers of Other Psychologists. Ah. It had become there were quite a Few people that I, you know, I might talk to and and so on, we were actually really quite afraid of getting out there online In case one of these actual people were going to kind of jump on them and and, you know, be rather robust with them. And it was it was really not coming from a place of intention. It as it turned out that this other person had not Intended for that to be the case at all. They thought that they were just, you know, being robust online, But they were putting, you know, the fear of God into all these other psychologists, and they were rather mortified when they found out that that had been Kind of bubbling up. So you you had a conversation. But as you said, it they were almost they in, you know, in archetypal terms, they were almost kind of this patriarchal Cool figure or or an embodiment of, you know, an archetype that we had been holding in our mind, which was what will this person think? So, yeah, the that was a weird collective psychology thing going on in the UK, I think.
[00:21:24] Liz Talago: But let's see.
[00:21:25] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. Interesting.
[00:21:29] Wendy Kendall: I was thinking there, Liz, about the work that you do Helping people to tell their stories and to unpack some of those, like, really core stories as well. And How how you kind of support and encourage them to you know, do they also need to put put those kind of, I don't know if it's inner critic or perceived critic figures out of their mouth.
[00:21:56] Liz Talago: That is so, So very much of the work I do to varying degrees depending on the person. So I I like to joke that my job is to Give my clients bigger microphones, and I like to work with people who traditionally haven't been easily given a microphone at all. And I could sit here all day and talk to you about the internal benefits of showing up with authenticity, Of not wearing a mask and the difference between having good boundaries and masking in your work, but there's also an incredible business case for authenticity. The world online is loud and noisy, and there are lots of people in the mental health field who wanna grow their businesses. And that's great Because we need lots of them. But your story is a business asset that, frankly, you you can't really afford to overlook anymore. And oftentimes, folks will come to me at critical points in their business. Maybe they're trying to scale. Maybe they're having trouble with fundraising. Maybe they wanna launch a new product or a new arm of their business, but they're struggling to come easel they're struggling to sell themselves, Essentially, or sell what they do because that feels dissonant or odd to them. And I think a lot of that has to do with some of the messing messaging that you've described, that makes people afraid to go against the grain. That makes people afraid to tell their audience not just who they are and what they do, but what they Stand for. But, really, that's that's the stuff that sets you apart from the crowd. That's the thing that's ultimately going to fuel your business. But in order to get to that point and to have that language and to start experimenting with sharing those stories, so much deconstruction has to happen Around the fear of showing up and not being liked, not being listened to. Who does she think she is? You know, that kind of thing. And my work is twofold in that I I try to be an example of that online. And The benefit for my business is that it, you know, re you know, attracts people like you, Wendy, who are philosophically aligned and values aligned in so many ways, which makes the work just so much better. And it repels people that are put off with that or by that whom I probably wouldn't wanna work with anyway. So Ultimate goal is to get really comfortable with those stories and talking about what you do in a way that feels really organic. But in order to get there, Your voice has to become louder than that inner critic, and that can be hard. And part of what I do is Not just help with the creative aspect of that. And what are those stories, and how do we talk about this, and how does your audience talk about this, and how do you get really comfortable with it? How do you develop the confidence to actually show up and share those stories as well? So it's a it's an emotional process for sure.
[00:24:50] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Definitely. And I'm thinking that a couple of things really stood out to me. So I think in telling those stories, and obviously, we worked with you on doing that, and it it was particularly, I think, at the time when Me and Ava. So Ava is my daughter who is, the managing director of this company, and she's also in the final year of Her master's degree in sports and exercise psychology. So she's growing into being, a psychologist herself. She's at that, you know, other end of her Career. And so there was this aspect of, okay, given that our founder team is different, You know, and we were moving we had moved into a different phase in the business. You know, when Michelle and I first started working together, I was I was kind of running this talent development program for psychologists in private practice, as kind of A side hustle? Well, it wasn't a side hustle. I loved it, but it was alongside running actually quite a busy corporate Supporting global companies. And then that just all shifted. You know, the the pandemic and the lockdowns changed a lot of things and therefore our company went Through some big shifts. Not least that we shifted, you know, we brought in Eva as, managing director. She does a lot of things. You know, she's basically the the op chief operating officer of the company and makes all that stuff work. And and I felt like that shifted our story as well. Mhmm. That shifted our roles, And it it made me feel differently about the purpose of this business. And therefore, it was really important to kind of Bring someone in to help us to make sense of that for ourselves. Mhmm. So it wasn't only about Marketing, let's say, but it was about what story we, are like, how are we on the same page together? What is the story that's Between us, what story are we living in this practice? And I I found that was really important then for When we were thinking about how to show up and recruit other people, like, who are we bringing in to support us with IT who were bringing in who supports us with, you know, whatever else it was, it just it was a way of clarifying how we wanted to experience our business on the inside as well as how we wanted To experience people to experience the business on the outside.
[00:27:42] Michelle Minnikin: And there
[00:27:43] Wendy Kendall: was an element there of what you said about, you know, what do we stand for? Like, what what is this Business about and the way that we run it and how are we living our values on the inside of it. And I think from that point of view, that felt then like we developed Self trust. Trust more trust and clarity in between one another, like, we were both on the same page with it, And then that just helps us to to lead better. That just helps us To recruit better, to bring in the right people, to make better decisions. So So, yeah, it wasn't just marketing, Liz. It was all organization development thing.
[00:28:25] Liz Talago: Yeah. Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves about our businesses shouldn't be so different than the stories we tell our audience.
[00:28:32] Wendy Kendall: Quite. To Michelle's point about authenticity earlier, yeah, You know, that external corporate story was just like you said, it wasn't connecting on the inside or the outside. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. So, Michelle, I'm always thinking about you as the queen of collaboration as well, and you mentioned the Pirate book. What is it? Be More Pirate?
[00:28:55] Michelle Minnikin: Be More Pirate. Yes.
[00:28:57] Wendy Kendall: I remember when, so Be More Pirate is a book by Sam Coniff, If I'm getting his name right. That's right. Yep. And Michelle was I think that was like a real moment for you when if I Kind of look back and reflect on it from my perspective. It looked like a real moment where you plugged into your queen of collaboration strength and you just like Messaged this author out of the blue and said, can I set up a book, a book launch event for you in my local area? And he was like, yeah. Sure. Why not? And then that became a that that just like opened up so much in terms of Collaboration in terms of the direction of your business. Can you tell a bit of the experience from your side?
[00:29:45] Michelle Minnikin: it's really it sounds quite audacious. So, yeah, I I read I read this book, And it kept it was weird because it kept popping up everywhere. And it was the summer of 2018. So I'd been working with Wendy for 6 months at that point, And it just felt like the stars aligned. And it was it was the book. And, you know, he hates it when people describe it as this as well. But it's just like it just gave me permission to be myself. Mhmm. And he's and he's talked about really recently. He, as in Sam, has talked about it really recently. It's The book that he needed to read himself, so he created that. So he's he's gone through a lot of reflection since writing that one. And he's on his he's on his 3rd book now. So that'll be that'll be coming out soon. So, yeah, I read this book and I was like, oh, this is brilliant. And then I just Started, like, following him on Instagram, and he and he said something along the lines of, oh, I'm in London, you know, blah blah blah doing this talk thing, hashtag Book launch. I was like, oh, new book launches. You might as well come to the northeast. So I, yeah, just messaged him. And he's like, yeah. If you can find a venue and stuff, Definitely. I'll be up for that. And, apparently, he got on the listening to it from his perspective is really interesting. He got on a plane to go to Denmark or somewhere from London. And by the time he'd got off the plane, I'd messaged him again to say, right. Got the venue. Here's some dates we can do. You know? Didn't even think of miss didn't even think to offer him any money to come up. So he just he just sort of, like, you know,
[00:31:21] Wendy Kendall: It's all been really. Yes. I've seen it. Yeah.
[00:31:26] Michelle Minnikin: So, yeah, it was just I was it was it was February 5 years ago. Right. And yeah. And then that opened my eyes to Some really cool people that he was working with. He just brought on his first member of staff to almost take over the responsibility for running the Be More Pirate community, Tea and brand. And so she came up for the first time as well, Alex. And, interestingly, if I'm gonna be starting
[00:31:55] Wendy Kendall: working with Alex Yeah?
[00:31:58] Michelle Minnikin: At the end of this month for, you know, my for my speaking. So that's, you know, just like
[00:32:06] Wendy Kendall: I mean, that's that's like a 180. And I remember it being such a pivotal point, but when you kind of look back at that, What what kind of lessons do you draw from that? What what would you tell yourself? Would you do anything differently? Would you yeah. What lessons have you drawn from it?
[00:32:27] Michelle Minnikin: No. It's like, you know, all these people that you think get all big and fancy and famous. They're actually humans too. I've done an I I did it again with, a a book that I loved called Citizens, a chap called John Alexander. So I saw him at a conference. Saw he was coming to a conference. I was gonna go to the same conference. I asked him if he could, It was 5 minutes for a for, you know, a chat and a coupe or something. And then we arranged for him and Sam And my partner, James, and I to interview them for the the sort of the January edition of the of our podcast. And They they know each other, so they're quite good friends. And so, yeah, just ask. Ask the what's the worst thing that somebody can happen? You know, what's I think that some someone say no or ignore you. It's amazing what happens when you ask for things.
[00:33:20] Wendy Kendall: And and so I just but I just find it amazing that for you it seems sounds like, And, Liz, it's going back to points you've made, which is, where you said it lock unlocked this idea that actually It sounds so simple to just say be yourself more, and all these things kind of Like so I'm just I'm curious. What how can we help people to think about being themselves more? What does that look like? What do we learn from that? I think I had a longer journey to journey to it, I think. So, Liz, you were going to say
[00:34:03] Liz Talago: Yeah. Well, I think the journey is unending in some way, but I also think it's a capacity issue. I think if you ask most busy psychologists or other mental health professionals who have a caseload up to here, Who are paying being paid maybe just enough to get by. If you said to them, hey. Would you like to have the space and capacity in your day and in your life to, like, reflect on showing up more authentically in your business, To be able to bring supporters and collaborators into your circle in ways that support you and your business, I think they would all say yes. Right. I think they would, but but and this is not to, don't know. Make this as an excuse or to position this as an unsolvable problem, but it's a very real issue when when Yeah. You don't have the space and you don't have the Resources to be able to even start to unpack some of what this means. And so what I love about your work, Wendy, is I think you are helping people start to build businesses and practices that innately leave room for that. Instead of having it be this Afterthought, this reactive, like, oh my god. I I am, you know, a ground 0. I need to rebuild. I I need to, like, Engage in more self care. Whatever that might be, you're you're talking about a more restorative practice Yes. For building businesses that That those concepts are kind of baked into, and that's what I wish that's what I wish for people in in all independent businesses. Yes. And that's kind of what I talk about On on my podcast, in my work with freelancers as well.
[00:35:46] Wendy Kendall: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. I saw something recently where, you you said about Building that into the business as well, and I was like, yes, Liz. I love that. I love that you're taking that also to freelancers. I mean, I'm always talking about it with psychologists. And as you said, you know, The thing that really strikes me about a lot of the work that we do so when I think about, you know, are there particular challenges that psychologists and therapists experience, which kind of put an additional test on this apart from what we've said earlier about how we maybe come in with, You know, it's also about the kind of work that we do. It's not just busy, but it's emotionally draining as well. And and then we also get taught about, Don't project. Don't bring yourself in. So, like, really, all of that just attenuates the amount of time we have To really feel as though we're exploring and being in connection with who we are, what our values are, and so on. So What
[00:36:45] Michelle Minnikin: we need. Yeah.
[00:36:47] Wendy Kendall: Right. And what we need. Exactly. Yeah. I have this question, and, Michelle, you pointed it out earlier, and I think, Liz, you've also talked about it in some of your podcasts, which is around perfectionism. And I'm wondering if, as psychologists, clinicians, mental health professionals, Are we particularly driven to be perfectionists? Or is do you yeah. Like, what are the layers that are within that for us?
[00:37:26] Liz Talago: I would say no. And Not that that doesn't exist. It exists universally in all professions, but I don't know if I would use the word perfectionism. I think there's What might be more at play is a scarcity mindset, and this other idea that helpers don't need help. Yeah. And those those myths, get us in in real trouble. I Yeah. I think if you are a mental health practitioner, you know all about self awareness, You know all about self care and emotional bandwidth, and you're probably really good at supporting those ideas with The folks you serve. And I don't know if it's perfectionism that keeps us from awarding ourselves the same grace, So much as it is, some of these cultural scripts around, these careers being more vocational than they are professional.
[00:38:29] Wendy Kendall: Yep.
[00:38:30] Liz Talago: Being more tied to our identity than than other things. And the hard part about that is that's that's what makes the work so great. It's it's, for many of us, a part of who we are. Yeah. And so to imagine giving up some aspect of control around that or appearing ineffective is really scary at a core level that I don't think maybe Translates in the same way to other professions. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's what that's kinda what came up for me.
[00:38:56] Wendy Kendall: A little bit. Yeah. Exactly. Michelle, you look reflective there.
[00:39:03] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. I I do think So if you think about it, in in order to become a psychologist, you have to do well at school because you have to do a degree. And then you have to do well under degree So so you can do your masters and all the stupid bloody hoops you have to jump through to become chartered or, you know, or try to
[00:39:21] Wendy Kendall: get into the license And
[00:39:22] Liz Talago: so Yeah.
[00:39:23] Michelle Minnikin: All of that crap. So there is a there's almost a there's a right way of doing things and a A good way of doing things and a perfect way of doing things. And, you know, thou shalt not deviate from the path because if, you know, if you deviate from the path, then you're not a proper whatever profession you are. Mhmm. Yes. I think there's there's that externally imposed perfectionism On us that we then sort of, you know, by osmosis, then carry around like a Yeah. Annoying backpack full of crap that we then realize it's not serving us, and then we throw it out the window. But it takes a while Do that because there's there's so much of that external stuff. It's like, you know, we've got all of the bloody rules, and they they, you know, they keep us Safe and they keep our clients safe, but they're all subject to, you know, interpretation as well. Yeah. And we're almost indoctrinated into following the path. Mhmm. And if you come off the path, then you're, you know, you're a bad professional.
[00:40:41] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:42] Liz Talago: I I like what you said, Michelle, about External perfectionism. And I think that's kind of what I was trying
[00:40:48] Wendy Kendall: to get at that it's Yeah.
[00:40:49] Liz Talago: We're we're we're not flawed perfectionists, But we have been asked to meet incredible standards. Some of which I think are almost impossible for any human to maintain Over the long haul, I can remember being in my graduate program and people who you know, a couple people who are academically very proficient, so good at school, were still removed from the program because they hadn't met certain, like, interpersonal skill development Bars that didn't seem super cut and dry to me because there's all this gatekeeping, which I'm sure you're familiar with, That is supposed to be designed to protect the people that we're ultimately gonna work with, so I get it. But if that doesn't inspire Fear of stepping outside the lines. I don't know what would.
[00:41:39] Wendy Kendall: Mhmm. Exactly. Exactly. When I think about some of the main challenges that People talk about so, you know, in in practices, it it tends to be initially things like the admin burden That is Just on Top of People. And this as you were talking about, these unrelenting high standards and also, you know, that sense of Of, punitive oversight. Like, if you make a wrong step, then you can be in deep trouble. And I think Just that fear keeps people locked in, even being really concerned about letting something as simple as, You know, scheduling or something like that, you know, even getting quite simple, but the but the administrative burden is really high on people to run an effective practice. Yes. And then there's also a lot of demand for services. So it it's like yeah. The external May not be just who we are as psychologists, but the psychology system itself kind of doesn't, you know, help us. Yeah.
[00:42:47] Michelle Minnikin: I thought I was gonna get struck off by the BPS for swearing on the Internet. You know? It was that level of, like, oh. Yeah.
[00:42:55] Wendy Kendall: I think it's just
[00:42:56] Michelle Minnikin: somebody in
[00:42:57] Wendy Kendall: terms of somebody complains
[00:42:58] Michelle Minnikin: that I said the f word on Instagram.
[00:43:00] Wendy Kendall: You know?
[00:43:01] Liz Talago: No. It's come for my license.
[00:43:01] Liz Talago: No. It's come for my license.
[00:43:03] Michelle Minnikin: Yep. Right.
[00:43:05] Liz Talago: Yeah. I think it's one of the reasons we're seeing a lot of licensed and credentialed folks enter the coaching world. And I think that I think that's a perfectly rational response and to some of this pressure. Not that coaches don't have Standards that they also need to meet, but it doesn't seem as punitive. It doesn't seem as oppressive as some of The standards that I think psychologists are held to for sure.
[00:43:32] Wendy Kendall: So it's not just that coaches swear more.
[00:43:35] Liz Talago: I mean, if they if they do sign me up because I I Probably love that. But
[00:43:39] Wendy Kendall: but Exactly.
[00:43:40] Liz Talago: Yeah. I just think it's it's held differently kind of in the fabric of a culture. The expectations are Different.
[00:43:46] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And,
[00:43:49] Michelle Minnikin: sorry.
[00:43:50] Wendy Kendall: Go on. Go ahead, Michelle.
[00:43:52] Michelle Minnikin: I was Absolutely terrified in sharing my book with psychologists just in case they're like, oh, no, Michelle. That's wrong. Because in our in our studies that, you know, the it doesn't It doesn't promote our own thinking because everything has to be evidence based and based on what somebody else said. So we're almost outsource our thinking to this research and that research and the other research. So
[00:44:22] Wendy Kendall: Yes. You
[00:44:23] Michelle Minnikin: know, we automatically assume because, you know, there's That we can't reference our new thinking that we are, you know, somehow wrong. So I was terrified. So I got Hannah and one of Hannah doctor Hannah Bryan to to do one of the sort of prereads just just to check, Like crikey, Michelle. That it you know, that I wasn't
[00:44:47] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:44:48] Michelle Minnikin: Beyond the realms of, like, You know, reason and sense.
[00:44:54] Wendy Kendall: And that goes to Liz's point around having those supporters around you. Mhmm. When we're thinking about doing things differently, breaking out I mean, the, you know, the tagline of this Some podcast is around breaking the mold of private practice. That's, you know, one of the things that we really wanna help people get more flexible about because, the rigidity seems to promote more rigidity. You know, when I think about and and, you know, goodness, as an organizational psychologist, we're Constantly talking about the need for agility and flexibility and responsiveness and all of those good things because, You know, the world is much more volatile and certain, ambiguous, all of those things. And yet we we've stayed in these little static kind of structures The you know, to keep ourselves safe, to keep our clients safe, but, actually, things need to kind of Things need to loosen up and let a few more people in. Mhmm. I would ask both of you the question. Jen, what do you think is the difference? So this sounds like an exam question. No. It's not meant to be. What's the difference Between outsourcing support and bringing in new employees or business partners. Like, would you Think about those things differently. It's a proper interview question there, isn't it?
[00:46:28] Liz Talago: When I think of outsourcing, I think of it in a more, like, finite sense. Like, I I'm a Word person. I am not a graphic designer. My medium of choice is the Google Doc, not, Adobe. So if I need something designed, for example, which I often do, I learned again the hard way that, could I do this? How much time will this take me? Oh, it's much easier for me to just hire a graphic designer who I trust to help me make my work better. That person doesn't necessarily interface with my client. They're just doing this targeted, perhaps one time or every once in a while task for me that helps my business move forward. When I think about collaboration and I do work with, a creative collective, and they're called Strange Salt, and it was founded by my podcast cohost, Jamie Cox. And that to me is more of an example of what I think of as, like, true collaboration because we come together. We've been on projects together. We're all on the client calls. We're all very value aligned, and so we refer work to each other. And there's much more back and forth kind of give and take versus kind of this kind of task based thing.
[00:47:21] Liz Talago: And that to me is more of an example of what I think of as, like, true collaboration because we come together. We've been on projects together. We're all on the client calls. We're all very value aligned, and so we refer work to each other. And there's much more back and forth kind of give and take versus kind of this kind of task based thing. So that might be oversimplifying it, but that's that's kinda how I think about it.
[00:47:45] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. No. And that question, can I do this? Tell me a little bit more about that question. So what, You know, when you're thinking about because maybe you could do the thing, but maybe you shouldn't do the thing. Like, what what is your thinking process To run whether you bring someone in to do a task that you could do Yeah. Or whether you outsource it.
[00:48:06] Liz Talago: Yeah. I mean, in the early days of my business, I didn't have the margins to outsource. And in order for me to win work, I had to have a more flexible offering that included things beyond My favorite parts of the project. But as I grew, I got to this kinda weird place where I could afford outsourcing, but I was still scared to do it because there's a loss of control.
[00:48:37] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:48:38] Liz Talago: That's an issue that I will continue to struggle with probably my whole life long, but my business is is mine, and it's so precious To me, and I've worked so hard to make it into this thing that I love that feeds my mind body bank account. And I don't wanna compromise it in any way, and I've I've made a poor hire. I've had that experience of, like, Oh, this wasn't a fit. Oh, this is gonna take me twice the amount of time to fix this. And I think those experiences of Messing up are what make me more comfortable with it now because the sky did not fall.
[00:48:38] Liz Talago: That's an issue that I will continue to struggle with probably my whole life long, but my business is is mine, and it's so precious To me, and I've worked so hard to make it into this thing that I love that feeds my mind body bank account. And I don't wanna compromise it in any way, and I've I've made a poor hire. I've had that experience of, like, Oh, this wasn't a fit. Oh, this is gonna take me twice the amount of time to fix this. And I think those experiences of Messing up are what make me more comfortable with it now because the sky did not fall. My business did not shutter.
[00:49:14] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah.
[00:49:15] Liz Talago: I I I'm I'm okay. And so I was able through that link to remove this ridiculous expectation that it's always gonna work out great. It's not. Right. It's okay. But learning that, you get better, you become more savvy, and you figure out, you know, the best type of fit for the type of work that you do and the type of business that you have, And you make less of those mistakes moving forward.
[00:49:38] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Exactly. That reminds me of the whole rupture and repair thing.
[00:49:43] Michelle Minnikin: Right? Mhmm.
[00:49:44] Wendy Kendall: In relationships, we know sometimes inevitably it's not gonna be right and then it's like okay how do we kind of repair that Yeah. Bring it around. Michelle, I was I'm gonna come to you with the exam question about, you know, your different experiences of Kind of outsourcing bits of work or bring deciding to bring someone in. Because you if I could say it like this, You brought someone in to help you with podcasting, and then you made them your life partner. You're awesome.
[00:50:20] Michelle Minnikin: to hear them. I think it's let's say it's mostly the the brands. So, yes, when Wendy and I Met. I was just coming out of a really awful relationship with a business partner who I definitely shouldn't have gone into business with. It was a massive mistake. Yes. But I was able to moonwalk out of that, luckily, and, without too much well, it was probably lots of trauma, but, you know, financially, it was fine. So I was very, very, what could only be described as Probably more so, like, precious about who, you know, who was gonna, like, touch my stuff And touched my stuff. Hilarious. Right. So I I started,
[00:51:09] Wendy Kendall: just networking. To lower the Tone. I know why you do lower the tone.
[00:51:13] Michelle Minnikin: And my you know, it's really funny. My child's got my sense of humor, so everything's hilarious now.
[00:51:18] Wendy Kendall: Oh, yeah. Because he's a teenager now. Yeah.
[00:51:20] Michelle Minnikin: He's a teenager now, and it's everything's everything's funny. So I set up a A networking event called LinkedIn Local. So I I had the Newcastle chapter as it were, and I met James on there. And, Jane, one of the first things that, It, struck me with James as he has the most beautiful voice that would not be out of place on some kind of smooth radio station. some, you know, I'm gonna talk to all of the bored housewives with my lovely voice. And, so it was so We started the podcast with him. It's like our first podcast. It was a way of testing because, you know, testing to see if we, you know, liked each other and work could work together. And, you know, of course, one thing led to another. And, yes. So he And so he kinda joined. We started our own little podcasting hobby, happiness business thing, Realized it was a really expensive hobby, and he was helping with bits and pieces of my previous psychology practice. But when we set up At Work Pirates, it was me and him, and we literally sat down. He's a Gallup certified strengths coach, so we literally did our, right. We're gonna have, like, a dual form of governance here because that's what pirates do. They have a captain who's in charge when things, you know, went to set the strategy.
[00:52:41] Wendy Kendall: And you adopted the pirates code in your business.
[00:52:44] Michelle Minnikin: We did. And and and then the quartermaster that sort of looked after all of the, You know, the culture and the people. They're sort of the day to day person in charge and then the strategic person when there's a crisis. And so I was like, oh, I wanna be the strategic Captain of the business. I wrote, you know, desperately wanted to, anyway.
[00:52:44] Michelle Minnikin: We did. And and and then the quartermaster that sort of looked after all of the, You know, the culture and the people. They're sort of the day to day person in charge and then the strategic person when there's a crisis. And so I was like, oh, I wanna be the strategic Captain of the business. I wrote, you know, desperately wanted to, anyway. We wrote all we've got all of our strengths down, and we looked at what what strengths work with each role, and it came very immediately apparent that I was the quartermaster, the day to day type person. So there's, like, the COO type of thing. And he was the he was that future thinker, the strategic, you know, financial savvy person. So he became, Sadly, he became the captain. But then I was like, I don't want to be called a quartermaster. So I became the captain of, culture, and he became the captain of strategy. Okay. So that's that's sort of the big collaboration. And then throughout our time working together, we bring in people for short missions, To help us on the business. But then when we win work, we bring in people to help us deliver work as well. And then we have A couple of partners that are with us for the long haul. So we have, a marketing strategic marketing person that we've worked with for years now, and And she is integral part of the business. But she's not an owner of the business, but she's got her own business. So so we describe ourselves, like, working with Almost like loads of different pirate ships that come together to, you know, to come together to do things That is useful. And then we all share bottles of rum. None of us drink hilariously after all of that. And, you know, sail off
[00:54:20] Wendy Kendall: into the sunset with our booty.
[00:54:23] Michelle Minnikin: keep going with the pirate thing. Sorry.
[00:54:26] Wendy Kendall: I love the use of story and metaphor in how you make decisions. I mean, come on.
[00:54:32] Michelle Minnikin: Yes. So that's that's how we that's how we're operating. And we because we talk about pirates and we know We attract the people that think in similar ways. So it makes it does make things easier. Yeah. And it's really hilarious to see sort of James, Laura, and myself sitting down, and she just comes up with the thing that we'd be missing. I'm like, yes. But, again, it's unpeeling, You know, layers of onions to get to what the core so we're redesigning the website now for the 7,000 per time. Yeah. And, you know, we trust her to know what we what we do and how we think as well. So It's brilliant.
[00:55:15] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:17 Supporting Neurodiversity in the Workplace
[00:55:17] Michelle Minnikin: How did I do? Did I get an a in my, exam question there? You know? I'm joking. Yeah.
[00:55:23] Wendy Kendall: And I'm very mindful that I've just set up that kind of whole perspective and we've been talking about the unrelenting high standards of psychologists, like how we're all driven to, like, pass exam questions and all the rest of it. So just falling straight into, you know, the the stereotype that we were kind of trying to challenge with that. So My apologies for that, guys.
[00:55:46] Liz Talago: So,
[00:55:49] Wendy Kendall: actually, Michelle, one of the other things That I wanted to ask you about because you mentioned it earlier was about getting your ADHD diagnosis. Mhmm. Because I think that was also a bit of a pivotal moment. And I don't know if you come across that also in terms of neurodiversity in with the people that you work with, Liz, about how for Some people with, you know, different kind of, needs and profiles, it might it can be more or less easy And more or less required to work with other people. Yeah.
[00:56:24] Liz Talago: Yeah. Absolutely. I have tried to create a system and an onboarding and off boarding system and a working system that are flexible enough to Meet people where they are in terms of how they like to communicate, the pace at which they like to work. And I tried to be really transparent and up Right about what I'm gonna need from them. I think there's this kind of myth out there that if you hire a support that all of a sudden your life is just gonna be A lot easier. What but the truth is I'm gonna make more work for you for a little while, because I need your partnership and to use your term, Michelle, mission. But there is no one singular way to get to the end result or the outcome that you're working for. And I I love meeting somebody whose brain Works differently than mine, who brings a different perspective to the table, who challenges some of the ways that I do things. And I try to lead with openness, and I I really try in, like, the first couple conversations to talk about neurodiversity and That it's part of my commitment in my business to wanna support people who think in different ways and operate in different ways than I do.
[00:57:33] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really important to kind of hear that as well because I don't know that everyone always anticipates That that is something that they can talk about when they're thinking about, you know, interviewing someone who is, or, you know, speaking to someone about getting some help in in how they show up. Michelle, what was your experience like around that?
[00:57:56] Michelle Minnikin: So with my With my ADHD, it's It was almost I was going around going around in the world without knowing the the kind of key fact about myself, just always feeling a little bit on the edge, a little bit like an outsider. And, honestly, at that point, if you'd asked me what I needed from anything, you know, my My response to how scary the world was was generally a fawn response. So that people pleasing. I don't know. You know that? I've been is it Pretty Woman's like, I'll be whoever you want me to be. You know? I know.
[00:58:37] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Mhmm.
[00:58:38] Michelle Minnikin: Because I had absolutely no idea who I was. Mhmm. So Even if and there's so there's so many people undiagnosed in the world, and getting a diagnosis is such a massive privilege, Especially nowadays. And it's It is interesting that we all kind of flock all flock together. So, all of our support workers And all of our, collaborators tend to be neuro it's like neurodiversity bingo. It really is.
[00:59:17] Wendy Kendall: It's like, oh, makes sense.
[00:59:21] Michelle Minnikin: But, yeah, it's it's it's because we, you know, we We get it. And when you go into that newly diagnosed phase, you can get really cross with the world Because this is information that would have been helpful as, you know, to us as children.
[00:59:36] Wendy Kendall: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm mindful of time and I'd love to kind of stay chatting with both of you. But I'm just thinking about, you know, for Liz, with your scope creep hat on, so thinking about that community of freelancers that you're Speaking to.
[00:59:57] Liz Talago: Mhmm.
[00:59:58] Wendy Kendall: What are things that psychologists should know about how to be safe and collaborative space For freelancers and other external providers. Like, what helps us to be good clients for for your guys?
[01:00:14] Liz Talago: Great question, Wendy. I mean, that's that's kinda hard to say because on on one level, Y'all make the best clients because, intuitively, you're you understand boundaries, and so that means you're respectful of my role and my Time, you're really open to the idea of collaboration and kind of problem solving in ways Maybe we haven't thought of before. But one thing I'll say that comes up and is a challenge sometimes is is Twofold. 1, you don't it's not your job to know how to work with me. You don't have to come into this relationship with a fully formed understanding of The discipline of content strategy in the mental health tech landscape. Like, no. That's my job, And that's the job of whatever collaborator you bring into the fold to guide you, to help you, to answer questions, and not expect you to be an expert In the thing you're hiring them to to solve for. And I think the other thing is just that, you know, Embrace the fact that this work is going to be hard and emotional in ways you probably won't expect. It is really diff like, difficult to Tease out the difference sometimes between personal and professional story, and I'm probably gonna ask some questions in helping you tell yours that Might bring some things up for you. And so I just wanna normalize that, yes, there is this very strategic part of what I do Around building businesses, but there's also a human and emotional part as well. So as you think about embarking on this kind of work That I do with messaging or any other business initiative, leave room for yourself to go through that process as well, Because you can't really skip that part and expect the same really authentic outcome. So embrace the discomfort, Know that most people are uncomfortable telling their story at the outset, and there's gonna probably be some tough days or conversations in the middle of what we're doing as you kinda grapple with some of things. But ultimately know that if you hire somebody to do that work with you, it's their job to support you through it, and you're not alone. Absolutely.
[01:02:34] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. I felt such an enormous weight lifted from my shoulders when you said, You know, it's not up to it's not your job to be an expert in what I do. It's It's like Oh, yeah.
[01:02:48] Liz Talago: Sounds simple. Sounds really simple. But it's amazing how, you know, when we talk about, like, what would be the barrier to somebody hiring a Collaborator. I think there's just a lot of confusion and anxiety. Well, I don't know how to work with that person. I don't know how to work. Don't know what they'll expect me. What am I gonna have to do? What do I need? What stage of business do I need to be in? Like, anxiety. Right?
[01:03:11] Wendy Kendall: Right.
[01:03:12] Liz Talago: You really if you if you meet the right collaborator, you shouldn't have to worry about that stuff. You really shouldn't. And so many Of the answers to those questions should already exist for you, whether it's on their you know, whatever platforms they're using, however they're communicating, or they should be an absolute open book to Answer any of them throughout the conversation that you're having with them so that you feel completely confident in your decision to bring them in when that time
[01:03:39] Wendy Kendall: Comes. And I remember, though, I grilled you a bit when we were thinking about working together. I do.
[01:03:44] Liz Talago: I was like It was Great, though, because we you had a ton of questions, and I have to tell you, like, that back and forth with you made subsequent onboarding conversations Better for for other clients because
[01:03:57] Michelle Minnikin: you showed
[01:03:58] Liz Talago: you you know, you showed me some ways that I could be better and more transparent and more proactive in the way that I communicate. We all know that we're so close to our own business. It's hard to see things sometimes. And so to have that outside perspective and to have someone trust me enough To say, like, I need to kick these tires a little bit and better understand how this is gonna work, what it's gonna look like, what am I gonna walk away with, what's the impact of This is gonna be what can you promise? What can you not promise? Yeah. I learned I learned a ton, and I respect you for it so much, as a collaborator and friend because It ultimately made my systems better.
[01:04:34] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And, and it was I really appreciated, like, how you responded To those questions as well. Because I think, you know, I've done the thing of I went back and just said, oh, can you explain that? And then Liz explained something, and I'm like, I still really Don't feel as though I've it's not that you hadn't answered it or tried to answer it. It was just like, have I asked the wrong quick like, I was there was my internal process going as well. Yeah. Yeah. And and you were so like, it's really not a problem. I'm I'm really just wanna hear you know, if you've got Anything in the back of your mind that is still unanswered, please do kind of share it with me. And I think I think there are aspects of that experience that I also Then also think about when I'm writing to clients thinking, like, I know sometimes these things might not make sense, so really, really don't hesitate Tay, about asking a, you know, a question. I'm I really wanna hear it. So yeah. Fabulous. Overall question, what else would we want practitioners to know about working with external providers in their business? I'm gonna come to you, Michelle. Oh, sorry. No. Lace was, like, nearly she was right there. Apology. She's on it. She's on it.
[01:05:52] Liz Talago: Sorry. You're just speaking my language. No. I wanna hear from Michelle. Okay.
[01:05:55] Michelle Minnikin: I think it's that managing expectations. So that's kind of the the thing that went horribly wrong with my first business partner is not having the this is what I this is what I'm gonna get from you, and this is what I'm gonna give to you. And having that in writing So it's clear. Yes. So that is yeah. It's all about expectations management. And then listen, if you are feeling Like boundaries. If you are feeling resentful towards the other personal situation, there's something that's, like, squishing your boundaries with it. So listen. Listen to those things and don't let things fester. Yeah. Because I was so guilty of, yeah, that's fine, thinking, oh, it's just this this is Pretty shit. I'm gonna have to do it myself. So it's yeah. Don't don't be afraid to send this send stuff back if it's not what you were Acting as well. They just accept, It. And, yeah, asking I love how many questions you must have asked Wendy.
[01:07:00] Wendy Kendall: I think I don't know. I mean, I think it I think ultimately, probably wasn't it wasn't like 20 questions or something, but, I think I probably went back maybe 3, maybe 4 times. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so, you know, whereas we might I might have felt uncomfortable at a point of asking well, I would have asked once, but I even by the second time, I might have started feeling Started to feel uncomfortable, you know, back in the day, let's say. But and and I really felt like there were things about working with Liz that I really wanted, I I really wanted to kind of understand some stuff, because I was really quite sure that Liz was a good fit for us, and it And so that kind of also encouraged me to, to just go back another couple of times and and just be a bit more, Yeah. Sure.
[01:07:53] Michelle Minnikin: It's almost how to deal with the tire kickers who are trying I'm sure this happens to you, Liz, and I'm sure it happens to you, Wendy, that just want to get all your information out of your head Free and had absolutely no intention of working with you. So how it's like, oh, it's how do you how do you how do you
[01:08:09] Liz Talago: Lead lead qualification. Right? Mhmm. That's tough. And I I have to constantly think about, you know, how can I streamline parts of what I do just to to be more efficient? But at the end of the day, there's no replacement for getting the phone and talking to somebody. And I do have, like, a little questionnaire. Like, if someone wants to book a content strategy call with me, I do do those, complimentary, like, 30 minute calls for people that are interested. They have to give me something. They have some information. They have to tell me a little bit about The problem they're trying to solve, what's important to them, their budget, and things like that. And so I think that does a little bit of sifting for me. Yeah. But Different people need different types and amounts of information, and I think it's important to remember what we do isn't this simple, Creep thing that you can explain in one sentence.
[01:09:03] Michelle Minnikin: You're not building a wall.
[01:09:05] Liz Talago: If I need an oil change, I'm going to go get an oil change, and I'm pretty sure and then that's a very important service. Not saying that to demean it at all. But Yeah. I can wrap my head around it a little bit easier. But when someone says, you know, content strategy or coaching or or some of these things that are just a little more gray, I think it becomes harder to have just one conversation and have someone totally understand everything that you do. I don't think it's possible.
[01:09:35] Wendy Kendall: Right. Yeah. Exactly. So, Liz, we interrupted you because you had a breath and you were, like, going to come in. Oh. I don't know if your moment has Has. But yeah. So the question was yeah.
[01:09:46] Liz Talago: I I just wanna put this out into the world as a request, because I think one of the challenges for psychologists and other mental health folks, in growing their business, they don't know what collaborators exist And how those collaborators might be able to support them. That's true. I wish there was, like, this hub, where I don't know if it would be like a directory or, like, how you could set it up so that People knew that there were these supports available. Yeah, we all do our own marketing, and we try to build bigger We're We're
[01:10:22] Wendy Kendall: creating a project now, though,
[01:10:24] Liz Talago: because you've done them.
[01:10:25] Wendy Kendall: 2 other people on this call that we're like, we could do that. We could definitely do
[01:10:30] Liz Talago: that. I know. That's kind of why I'm saying it. I just think
[01:10:33] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[01:10:34] Liz Talago: There there are big problems that are really hard to solve, and then there are simpler ones of just, Like, awareness and centralized information. Because when you go to school for psychology, they don't teach you, like and, You know, there are these specialists who can help you grow your private practice in this certain way or they're marketers or you know? And it's not their job, again, To know that we exist, and I think there's more that the community of collaborators could do to help folks understand the ways that we can support them.
[01:11:08] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. That's a really great point. And now I've got my thinking hat on about what are the ways in which no. Because We have clients that ask us as well, you know, and and the whole referral network is definitely a thing. So I absolutely agree with you. There must be ways in which we can we can get that kind of ball rolling. And Yeah. I mean, Heavens above, we'll all we'll all be helping one another to kind of all grow our businesses. I'm I'm about the ecosystem. You know, I don't wanna see this stuff kind of all centralized and controlled by somebody. I feel like, you know, the more that we kind of Have a really healthy ecosystem of providers. The Yeah. You know? All working with one another, then we don't need to, I don't know. Keep on giving our money to Jeff Bezos or something. You know? Exactly.
[01:12:02] Liz Talago: People are
[01:12:03] Wendy Kendall: cutting it out the middle. Right? Mhmm. That's who it was. Thank you so much for your time today. It was so fun. Of you, and thank you so much, Liz, for being such a generous, guest and sharing all of your, insights and feelings about it and all your stories and so on, it's been really Fantastic to, it's been fantastic to have this time to speak to you as well. I've, really enjoyed it.
[01:12:33] Liz Talago: Likewise. Likewise. I could Talked to you both for many hours. So this was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed it.
[01:12:39] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. I've really got the idea for our next business, so it's great, isn't it?
[01:12:42] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. There. Exactly. Exactly. Michelle will be coming up with, Michelle's a doer and a shaker as well. She'll have it done in 5 minutes flat. I haven't done yet.
[01:12:51] Michelle Minnikin: I really don't have time. On the list.
[01:12:55] Wendy Kendall: Both of us, I think, have got have got business partners that go, yeah, great idea. Not for this
[01:13:02] Michelle Minnikin: year, though. No.
[01:13:04] Liz Talago: I know I know the feeling.
[01:13:06] Michelle Minnikin: But Alright.
[01:13:07] Wendy Kendall: Liz, where can we find you on social media?
[01:13:10] Liz Talago: So I, you can find me on LinkedIn. Just my name, liztalago. That's where I'm most Active. I'm taking a little bit of an Instagram hiatus, which is a story for another day. Giving myself a breather there, but I'll always be on LinkedIn. And my website is linked through LinkedIn, so you can always reach out to me there as well.
[01:13:30] Wendy Kendall: Perfect. Awesome. Alright. So thank you very much, and, See you next time, Liz.
[01:13:36] Michelle Minnikin: Bye. Thank you. Bye.
[01:13:41] Wendy Kendall: You can do yeah. We had the little thing. Do you have a couple of minutes just for Yeah. Yeah. Of course. A little bit of reflection? Do you want? Yeah. I mean, the the the question again is, like, what really struck you? What what kind of stood out to you? Yeah. Anything in particular that kind of that made you think?
[01:14:07] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. Because it's it's interesting because we have, we are both The supplier and the customer as well.
[01:14:17] Wendy Kendall: Me and you.
[01:14:18] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. So, you know, we are suppliers to other businesses.
[01:14:22] Wendy Kendall: Yep.
[01:14:24] Michelle Minnikin: And also we bring in people, and we're the client. That's true. Have to wear both of those hats, and it's really Interesting. Just to almost reflect on that because that that's the thing. This is the first time that's actually just sunk in because we have all the same, You know you know, having to onboard and off board clients. Of course, we do that. But, yeah, It's interesting. It's like it's like the world's like a merry-go-round of everybody onboarding and offboarding and being the the client and the supplier and the client and the supplier. And Yeah.
[01:14:59] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. I'm just gonna do a little kind of, a little sentence. I think we can probably cut back to that point Unless you wanna repeat it, but just, to have a little sentence that's a bridge between our discussion with Liz and our reflection. Mhmm. Okay. So there were many layers to this conversation with Liz, Michelle, and I'm just wondering what really stood out for you. Has anything kind of struck you? Any new perspectives it's come out of our conversation.
[01:15:38] Michelle Minnikin: I I I found it absolutely fascinating, and it It hasn't clicked in before now, understanding the fact that we are all suppliers and clients. Right. Yeah. And so Almost thinking of both of those as 2 different 2 different processes that we have to Think through in terms of that sort of client to customer and supplier journey. So, yeah, it's given me a lot to Not to put on the to do list.
[01:16:11] Wendy Kendall: There's a exactly. And when I as I start to kind of reflect on this, it Makes me realize how well, it it's kinda giving me thoughts of kind of empathy and compassion for the people who actually Putting trust and faith in us as psychologists as well. So, you know, we think about how hard it is for us sometimes to do that outsourcing. But also, you know, when I think about the title of the, of the episode, which is around Embracing support and how healing that is. I feel like sometimes as psychologists, we think that the stuff we do to people With people. I do. You know, the the stuff we do on people It's like the stuff that makes a difference, but, actually, there's this, of course, this other very human aspect of I've reached out. I've I've allowed someone to come into my world, and I'm working with them as I'm, you know, And and engaging them to get support, and that's what we do with clients every day. And it's it's like thinking about how that is from their perspective and then thinking about, Oh, yeah. Maybe. If if we we kinda want clients to do that for us, oh, maybe we can do that for other people as well. We can also have a a growth experience because we allow people to come and Support us as well.
[01:17:45] Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. And being really conscious of that relationship.
[01:17:50] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So it it comes back to the thing that I've been kinda going on about, which is, how actually some of these some of these things that we really struggle with if we, and in fact you and Liz pointed this out, you know if we just Kind of apply some of our own skills and capabilities. Like, these things are, within, the realm of our Skills and capabilities to do as well as psychologists. You know, they they can be a little bit closer to the comfort zone, maybe.
[01:18:25] Michelle Minnikin: Yes. As long as you can get out of the comfort zone in terms of asking for help In the first place and realizing that,
[01:18:32] you
[01:18:33] Michelle Minnikin: know, we're not superhuman. We can't do everything on our own.
[01:18:36] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here Today,
[01:18:42] Michelle Minnikin: there's nobody been fun.
[01:18:45] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. There was no one else I'd more love to kind of cohost this episode with knowing that you've Had such a kind of varied journey in working with different people, bringing them in, and I just love the whole kind of Pirate ship approach to working with other people in your business. And, yeah. So let people know where they can find you on social media.
[01:19:09] Michelle Minnikin: Oh, I'm on LinkedIn too. You can't really miss me. There we mminnikin , just look me up.
[01:19:19] Wendy Kendall: Perfect. Thanks so much, Michelle. See you soon.
[01:19:23] Bye bye.
