Wendy Kendall
Hello, and welcome to episode two of the Inspiring Psychologists podcast where we are talking with inspiring psychologists who are breaking the mould of private practice. And today we had a very exciting discussion with three psychologists that I've known for a few years now, who I know have been forging ahead and really breaking the mould of what traditional private practice models look like. And we'll be joined shortly by Dr. Tina Mistry. Dr. Romy Sherlock and Dr. Natalie Bodart. And the title of today's podcast is breaking free from the box, courageously forging your unique path in private practice. I welcome all of you to this discussion. I'm really looking forward to it. Hi, Romy. Hi, Natalie. Hey, Tina. It's so great to see you all on my YouTube. Thank you. Pleasure, pleasure. I guess first things first, which is really getting to know you a little bit as practitioners. And I just wondered if you might be happy to introduce yourselves and say a little bit about where you're at now in terms of your private practices. I've got Romy right next to me on the screen. I wonder if you might be happy to start Romy
An introduction to our guests:
Dr Romy Sherlock
Yeah, sure. I'm a clinical psychologist, and I specialise in working with people with persistent or chronic pain. And I'm now co-director of a company called Retraining Pain, and we offer multidisciplinary Pain Rehab nationwide to people who have persistent pain problems. So that's sort of psychologically informed physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and obviously, psychology input to for people with long term pain.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, and I think I remember when you and I first met, it might have been 2018, or even 20, early 2019. And if I remember rightly, you were running a pro, like a traditional private practice with Yeah. Did you have some colleagues involved in that as well?
Dr Romy Sherlock
Yeah, just one psychologist. Yeah. And doing NHS work as well in pain. So it's mostly Yeah, mostly NHS? Or maybe half and half can't remember at that point.
Wendy Kendall
Right. Right. And, of course, at that time, and, you know, in the green room earlier, we were just swapping notes about the fact that the pandemic was coming up at that point. So I think for all of you, that probably has kind of figured in how you know how much coverage you've had to kind of bring into your private practice. Thanks, Romy. And Natalie, how about you? What's your kind of background? And where are you up to now with your private practice?
Dr Natalie Bodart
Yeah, sure. I am a clinical psychologist. I'm a founder of the Bodart Practice. So we help people to deal with the past, to live in the present and to build the life they want through mind, body and community. What that really means is using psychological therapies alongside approaches like mindfulness, yoga, somatic work, nutritional therapy, and really this understanding that mental health is about more than mine alone. And so we're based in London. It's very important to us that we're based in our local communities. That was a big part of our ethos, obviously challenging during the pandemic. And also online, so we see people much further afield as well.
Wendy Kendall
Right. Yeah. Perfect. And can you remind me where you were and what you were up to when you and I first met? So I think it was again around the 2018 2019 mark. But I think you were already moving into the Bodart Practice, but the seed was just budding for you.
Dr Natalie Bodart
Yeah, I'm sure we'll talk more about it, actually. So yeah, I've been doing private practice for quite a long time, I think because my first job out of training was in a private organisation at the Priory, so I think I had exposure to it at that time, much sooner than psychologists normally would. And so I'd already started doing a bit of private work and it has been, you know, trickling alongside some of my NHS jobs and never really settled on one that I loved, as I was learning more about what I felt a good service or practice would be. And also, I was working in more corporate spaces. So I was working in places like Google Morgan Stanley working in their health centers, facilitating webinars, and which I also loved, but also, I had lots of ideas about how we could do a bit more than just being sort of scribble squirrelled away in these sort of little clinic spaces. So yeah. Yeah. So part of my journey, I think, when we met, Wendy was taking the leap, which was about what you know, when am I going to, when am I going to take this leap of just doing it fully, you know, and that was part of where I was at in my own life journey, as well with having a young family and that sort of thing. So it's sort of figuring all of that out. But there's never a perfect time. And the time came just before the pandemic, as it turned out. But yeah, so that's sort of where I was then.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, you've reminded me that that's such a good point as well about how often we imagine or start our private practices and that they're immediately full-time. And of course, for the vast majority of practitioners. It doesn't work like that. Right. So Tina, I think you may have literally travelled the greatest distance in your private practice development. So a little bit of intro from you, please. And also where you are now. And where did you start? Thanks.
Dr Tina Mistry
Yeah. So hello, from sunny Dubai. I'm in Dubai. And yeah, I'm a clinical psychologist as well. UK trained, and I'm currently undergoing the licensing process to become a clinical psychologist here as well. So that takes a bit of time. My history I feel like it's squiggly the only word I could describe as a squiggly word. Yeah, very squiggly. Gosh, so when I started my passion, it was obviously to work in private practice. And when I met Wendy, I was doing that already. But I just couldn't figure out what my niche would be like, who is it that I really wanted to serve? And I had lots of conversations with you, Wendy, about, you know, who it is that I really want to work with. And it felt like it had just organically grown from an interest where my specialism Lee working with minority communities, and, the South Asian community in the UK. And I just began posting on Instagram, and that suddenly just grew. And that turned into a full-time practice serving, you know, South Asians living in the UK, and beyond actually struggling with culture, you know, the intersection with mental health, gender expectations, you name it, I was seeing that all. And then it grew even more into something else, where I had lots of other South Asian therapists' kind of reaching out to me saying, Tina, how are you doing this? And how can you find this information? And can you teach me about that? Can you provide some information on this, and can I pick my brain around this and I was like, hang on, there's something here as well, that I really want to support South Asian therapists, which then turned into the Brown Therapist Network, which is still going today, which I'm hugely proud of, because it has kind of just grown leaps and bounds. It is a community first at the heart of it or where it's run by South Asian therapists for South Asian therapists. And the additional it is global. And I love the fact that we are truly global.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And in fact, I just noticed, today or this morning on Instagram, I was like checking out all your feeds. And I just noticed as well, a post that you were you were showing some of the new therapists that have joined Brown Therapists' Network, and I remember that it's really like, gone right around the world now. So that's just amazing. And I'm going to ask you as well, why in particular has I mean, this is a question for all of you. So whoever wants to kind of jump in here, but why was this particular private practice journey important to you, you know, this journey to doing something different than what had gone before?
Why is your private practice journey important to you?
Dr Romy Sherlock
I can say something on that if you like, yeah, love to think. I think for me, I was working. I was doing private practice, but it wasn't working people with pain in every practice, but the bits that I was doing it, it was just not great. Like we're just the opportunities to work with people a bit like what Natalie was saying and see what you can do. But then what was being done there was a big mismatch between the two and then just in the same really in the NHS as well kind of ethically And really, in practice, what need people needed was not what we could offer, because of the way the services were set up and funding and shortages of stuff and things like that. So it felt I never had any, any desire at all, to set up my own company and my own practice to do this, if somebody else had been doing what we wanted to do, I would have happily just kind of jumped on the coattails of somebody else and just gone and done. But it just it wasn't happening. And we knew what, you know, what could be the kinds of gains and recovery that people could make with the right treatment. But we weren't offering it to them in the right way. So we weren't working in a joined-up way or in an evidence-based way. So just kind of saying, well, we can just do this, but we need to do it. You know, we need to set it up from the beginning the way that it needs to be done, rather than trying to sort of change a system that we can't change.
Wendy Kendall
Right? Yes. And if I remember rightly, as well, you also had some colleagues who are not psychologists who kind of I don't know that I would say, I don't know that they immediately shared the exact same vision, but they had a sense of the same problem and kind of concerned about it. So how did you all come together? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Romy Sherlock
So yeah, as a physiotherapist, who, who Andy here now, co directory Retraining Pain with so yeah, we had the same kind of shared frustration around what we could be doing. But obviously, completely different professional backgrounds and experiences of working, you know, kind of independently private practice. What direction do we take a kind of new setup in? So yeah, lots of I think a lot of our early conversations around that weren't they sort of trying to go we're not actually setting up a psychology practice or setting up a practice that psychologically informed and run partly by a psychologist, but he's also kind of got a whole other kind of professional background and model of thinking. yeah, that that kind of took a bit of sort of think I was sort of it took a long time, I think, to kind of have those conversations and figure out what the right way to do that was.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, and I remember a lot of conversations around that it's almost like the leadership conversations that you had to have in order to in order for everyone who was going to lead that practice to be, you know, proverbially on the same page, or at least a similar page about which direction it was going to go. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a big investment in those upfront conversations.
Dr Romy Sherlock
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I had left the NHS prior to the pandemic. And Andy, poor Andy, who is a physio got immediately drafted into kind of frontline work in the pandemic. So his opportunity to kind of leap was a bit different to mine. So he fully joined in about a year later, whilst trying to work around the edges of work in the COVID worlds and things to the pandemic. So it was it was a really weird and non ideal start, but it kind of took us in a direction that it ultimately has been good. Without was realising that that would happen.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. Tina, can I draw you in here, because al I think, what I, what I took also from your introduction, and what I remember from some of our early conversations, as well was around the extent to which the direction you wanted to go in was also to do with frustrations about the system, and trying to, you know, flex around it, but also just, you know, quit fighting with it and do things a different way, in a way that work for you. So can you kind of share with those some of those experiences that you had around, you know, why this journey was so important to you?
Dr Tina Mistry
Yeah, I mean, I resonate massively with a lot of the things that Brian has said, and I think that with my journey was around not seeing spaces or services that were, you know, kind of calling out to underrepresented communities, you know, minority communities. And I think there was a big struggle around a lot of the, you know, how do we get access? I kept, you know, all the conversations I was having, having with lots of people who knew that I was a psychologist would always ask me the same questions. How do I, what do I need to do? We're not sure if it's for us, you know, and this is traditional Mental health services that they struggled to engage with. And, you know, since the whole pandemic, since the whole Black Lives Matter conversation, all of this has been pretty much, you know, forefront in my mind. And I think that, again, it comes from a place of frustration that, there just isn't spec, there aren't spaces, you know, designed for people that look like me might have the concerns that I have that explore the issues that I might struggle with. So I felt like that that's where the need has to be. But the idea of the Brown Therapist Network was, it's a collective space. And that's the piece that I really wanted to hold on to is that we are lots of different voices coming together to, to almost look at the services that are currently existing and almost kind of figure out a way that works for us that what can we offer that figure that works for communities that might be underrepresented?
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, and, you know, the way that I've seen the Brown Therapist Network grow and develop as well, and with that collective, like shared leadership, shared global leadership, I can, I can really imagine a sense in you know, how that getting people together on a shared mission like that can also start to influence hopefully, systems in other places, so that, you know, collectively, the voices stronger to argue for some of these changes to the actual system. And, you know, hopefully decision makers start to set up and realise that practitioners are actually doing this a different way. And maybe there are some things to learn from the practitioners as well. Yeah. Natalie, so why was this particular journey? Thank you, Tina. Natalie, why was this journey particularly important to you?
Dr Natalie Bodart
Yeah, I mean, I can really, again, resonate with both what Tina was saying I'm Romy actually, in that sense of, I guess services as their setup can often be because of lots of reasons restricted and, and always felt sort of stigmatising, and that's what I was saying earlier about sort of being squirrelled away, like as a as a psychologist, you know, having to do that, just that one to one work, and like the end of the corridor, you know, all kinds of in, in very old mental health institutions. You know, because Tina was talking about community and I was thinking, you know if we're going to break down the stigma around mental health, we need to just make it a much more normal, everyday thing that everybody is working on at any point of their wellness. yeah, so for me, it was about principles around client choice, or giving people more choice over the therapist, they wanted the length of the therapist that they wanted, you know, in collaboration with us, as psychologists, obviously, having a very just down to earth, human to human practice. And actually, some people comment that on our website, some of us in our team faces read our socks, and it's quite funny how like, things like that.
Wendy Kendall
But I'm going to have a look now,
Dr Natalie Bodart
I haven't really thought about it either. But you know, we are in, we are based in yoga studios, because I really wanted us to be in spaces that felt soothing, welcoming, where there was community around this sense of mental health being a lifelong journey. So I think because of a sort of medicalized model, there's this idea of problem fixing. And in some cases, I understand why that's there. And it's still relevant in some cases. But for lots of people, well, my special interest area is attachment trauma, or working with childhood trauma in adults. And I feel like, it's much healthier or more helpful to think that you might come in and out of therapy at different points. And that it can be something that you don't have to just slap up. It's not like a one shot thing, you know, I'm really this idea of just working with the whole person that we just can't, I just don't feel like we can always do everything sat in a room talking that we need to bring the body and you know, how are we nourishing the body? What are we feeding it? How are we moving? How are we relating to other people, and really, you know, being part of our local communities. So in the spaces that we see people but also contributing to local charities, we're going to be doing some workshops or festivals, just this idea that mental health can just be a journey that we take at any point in time and just giving people lots more choice and a much more relaxed and welcoming environment in which to do that in so you know, that was a really big driver for me. And then the second thing I think, was more personal in terms of having a practice that now, I say this now, it's not always come to fruition, but sort of fits around my life a bit more so it's more flexible. I'm not a very nine to five type of person. So I wanted something that was more flexible that could fit around family. That doesn't always happen, I'm just going to put that out there. And just the ideal. And al he's just a bit more sociable. So this I always felt, I always sort of sort of friends that we're in careers where, you know, the team was much more sociable than they'd like, do nice things to get. And I thought, why can't we do that, as psychologists maybe it's a product of me being quite an extrovert myself, but I thought well,
Wendy Kendall
but I think it's also inspired by your cross fitting, lovely people in there and altogether, and we do these different things. And but it all kind of fits together. Yeah, it definitely reminds me of that spirit of kind of coming together in some of those shared spaces. And, and so I'm, what I really love about what you've all said in this is because, you know, we talk about mental health stigma, and you think, well, is that stigma to me that we talk a lot about the stigma of mental health, and how that can be held by people experiencing mental health challenges. And I think what we talk about less publicly, but that all of you have alluded to, is that as practitioners, we fear being stigmatised for having different ideas about how therapy or how mental health service provision should be offered. And I just, I can't remember who it was said, you know, I think it might have been you, Natalie, where you said, oh, you know, we're at the end of the corridor, just doing our little secret thing. And I can kind of relate to that, you know, we do this, sometimes when we're testing some of the ways in which we might want to offer services, that can be that sense that we're, we're just going to test this a little bit under the radar, you know, we're just going to, we're not going to go really visible in public with it, because you know, maybe someone's going to come down on us with a with a tone of bricks or something if we step outside the lines. And that's, that's something that I really want to that I just want to really grind down and bust through over time. Because I really feel like as practitioners, we put so much effort into learning our craft into learning our profession, and we have so many brilliant ideas about how to flex and change and meet the needs of different people. And there's a massive need out there. But it takes a lot of courage to start doing that. So when it came to courageously forging your own path, what kind of comes up for you around that? Where was it? Where was it most scary? What helped? Yeah, and what have you kind of learned about, you know, growing your own courage as practitioners in private practice? Tina, I'm going to come to you.
What has been your experience of courageously forging your path in private practice?
Dr Tina Mistry
Yeah, going against the grain was probably the biggest thing that I definitely felt. Because it was a bit like, who was I to target a specific community? Who was I to speak up for my community? You know, that there was a lot of that, that came up for me about, you know, what, what I should to I should be serving and who I should be talking to. And that was that was really difficult, because, as I as I trained, we were trained to serve all, you know, is that as we can, but I felt like in some ways, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, and I didn't feel like I was, I didn't know there was just something that just didn't feel right for me, because I always felt like there was a missing piece. And I had to remind myself, because this was, again, a lot of work on my heart. My part when I was doing this work, I guess was, why did I come into this profession? And I had to go back to 15-year-old Tina and ask her why you do why are you so interested in psychology and mental health, and I still remember that moment when I just wanted to know what the words were in my, in my culture and language of what this is. And still to this day, we don't have the words we don't have the language but what we what I what I'm passionate about doing is creating a space to have these conversations around, you know, the, the ideas of decolonizing you know, the concept of being critical. The idea of forging your own identity is a bit like what we're doing now but as individuals, right minority communities, for example. And yeah, and just bringing those conversations to the conscious, because I feel like that all of that complex, nuanced stuff was never at the forefront of people's minds. And all we were left with were labels. And we couldn't connect with those labels, because we didn't know what they meant and how they related to us. So they were, they were a lot of battles, and I'm still going through these battles. Now there's no, you know, I'm not saying that this is something that I've fixed or sorted, this is something that a Brown Therapist Network, we have gotten our forefront of the mind of being very critical of the approaches we use, trying to decolonize. And again, that's really hard when you've been trained to kind of, you know, work and see the world in a particular way. And yeah, just bring people's perspectives together, and do it, do it together and forge together and create together. And I think that's, you realise that you can't do it alone, you must have your people with you, you must bring these voices along with you so that you can then be in your messaging.
Wendy Kendall
And so that speaks to me a little bit about the collective power of courage as well. So that that sense that courage calls to courage and, and, you know, what, what was really what really helped you to be the one to pop your head up? What do you think was the impetus with that?
Dr Tina Mistry
I think it was really weird. I'm going to sound weird when I say this, but there was just something inside of me. And maybe there was something about my, my history, you know, my, I almost think of like, my grandparents and my great grandparents and thinking about what would they want me to do? What would they do with my privilege that I have right now? What would they want? Yeah. And, and it's almost kind of like thinking about that, you know, that piece around. I'm here. Because they were, where they were, they suffered, whatever, all that stuff. And actually, how do I now help future generations? So, I've got kids, and it's kind of like, I want to pass that baton on, I want to encourage and inspire these conversations to continue, you know, so it's, there's just something about that lineage piece. And yeah, potential future piece as well.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. Which I love as well, because for me, that means that collective courage is not just, you know, the people who are currently alive on this planet and kind of in connection with us, but maybe also that intergenerational courage as well. That is, you know, being passed down. Awesome. Natalie, coming to you, you know, calling to courage. And I know, we're kind of, you know, I love. I love that reference to Cross Fitting. Because to me, getting in the CrossFit gym must be a courageous thing. So harness your strength. But for you, yeah, you know, coming back to this thing of taking your courage in your hands and doing things differently. What was that experience like for you with your private practice?
Dr Natalie Bodart
Yeah, I mean, I think if I go back to when I started the practice, as it stands now, the biggest piece of courage for me was believing that it could work, you know, a very simple, I say, simple, but so important, like, fundamental level of, if I put all of my eggs in this basket, if I just go fully in this, is it going to work? Am I going to enjoy it? Is it going to pay me enough to live and, you know, there's because I think anybody in any industry that does sort of freelance or contracting work, you sort of have to take that anxiety that comes with it. And, you know, even when there's sort of the ups and downs, you know, I can feel that, you know, that still kind of bubbles up, really, but so I think that, for me was where it started. But then beyond that, I think there's something a bit tricky about this idea of the sorts of narratives in psychology, and I think, Tina, you were, well, you were touching on it, Tina, about how we're trained. And I think we're trained in a way that there's a lot of shoulds and should not and how we should practice and what we should be doing and what is the honorable or right thing to do. And I think we get caught up in a lot of that. But then, when I was looking at a lot of the business, you know, building a business narrative, they didn't really fit either because there's a lot of this idea of your ideal client avatar and your niche And, and for a long time, and when do you and I spoke about it? Yeah.
Wendy Kendall
My personal bet noir, the client avatar?
Dr Natalie Bodart
yeah. So I was just quiet. I was just really in the weeds with all of that. And I was like, why don't neither of these things really fit for me and on reflection, I thought, well, I've sort of come out of training. And across the course of all my jobs that I'd had, I thought, Well, the thing that always brought me a lot of joy and pleasure was actually the teams that I worked in, it didn't actually really matter who the client group were, it was more about what a job is really enjoyable when you have a really good approach and team and you feel supported. So I sort of trying to navigate through all of that, really. So I think just being able to take the courage to say, my sort of niche, if you like, is this holistic, or what I want is a very holistic practice the principles I spoke about earlier, maybe that's good enough, maybe that is enough and forging ahead with that. And I mean, beyond that, I think there's been, there's ongoing courage, if you like, around, navigating the roller coaster, and I, you know, I really want to, I think I just really want to be open about how hard it is to run a private practice as well. Because I think sometimes it's an idea that it's easy, and the work is plentiful. And to some degree, that's true, but it's there's so many ups and downs. And there's a lot of courage in being a leader and then running a business. Like I've literally had to learn a whole new career, basically. And there's definitely been times I've been like, I just need, I should just get a job, you know? Yeah, so I think it's, it's all of that, you know, and, you know, making those initial decisions, taking the leap. But then the courage, it takes on an ongoing basis to grow and continue and develop in that sort of way. Really.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, the, what you're describing to me reminds me of that little storyline I have, which is we imagine growing a successful practice, climbing the mountain, and when we get to the top of the mountain, you know, first of all, we will have received the wisdom. And also we will have this perfect mystery, and we will be able to see everything and everything will be clear. And you know that that's where we'll be where the reality is. It's like being in The Lord of the Rings. You know, one minute, you're skipping through the Shire. Yeah. And you've got all your Hobbit friends around you. And the next minute, you're fighting through the forest to fangirl on again, and you're like, Where's all my friends? You know, there's so much in that, that we go through these periods of it, sometimes it feels great. And other times it you know, we really have to put our brave pants on again, as we are saying. Romy, on the topic of brave pants.
Dr Romy Sherlock
Oh, yeah. Mine around here somewhere. The first thing that sprang to mind when you ask the question, and Natalie and Tina have kind of touched on it, as well as I think we get trained. Well, I got trained to be an NHS psychologist. You know, we didn't talk about private practice, definitely, when I trained, maybe they do more now. And it wasn't that, like people did little bit of private practice, maybe, but not very many people when you know, full on, I'm going to do this all the time. And that has, of course, become more common. But I think that takes a lot of courage as well, because it feels like I shouldn't be doing like you've kind of been sort of shaped into this person, like this is our we're in this big dysfunctional family. That's the NHS and this is what we do. And you can't really change it, but you just kind of put your head down and get on with it. And then obviously, over the years, things kind of changed. I just can't, I can't keep doing this. I can't. And you know, we were at a conference recently, and we were chatting to a team and we were sort of saying, Ah, our team, our NHS team actually got decommissioned, which ultimately was what happened, I'd already left by them. But it's like if I kind of feel like I must sort of go, oh, well, I'm only doing this because I couldn't do that anymore sort of thing, which kind of isn't true. So I think just to kind of break out of that mould and being a psychologist that works in physical health, I think takes you know, there's a lot of I think we constantly have to have difficult conversations around where psychology lands within that landscape of physical health where things are very medical. And, you know, we still very much have this view in Western culture anyway about kind of the biomedical model for physical health problems, and you kind of have to sort of weigh in with the doctors sometimes and say, Hey, I think maybe we need to look at this from a wider perspective, and they're a bit like, you know, like one of the pain doctors I work with used to joke like, are you just going to play some whale music roving and stuff and it's like, yeah. So really invalidating,
Wendy Kendall
I know Well, exactly.
Dr Romy Sherlock
to kind of constantly just kind of try and be brave and be like, No, I do have actually some important things to say here. And you know, also just the bit developing a practice and having to do things like post stuff on social media and write blog posts and like, literally put your head above the parapet and say, I think this and you know, not to mention things like God, Twitter and things like, you know, someone's going to chuck stuff at you. And somebody's definitely going to disagree.
Yeah, just having to constantly like it's that sort of comfort, stretch panic thing, isn't it? Like, oh, I'm totally drifting into panic and cook, you know, stretches. Good. Yeah, sort of constantly coming back to that.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that I've reflected on over the, you know, the years that I've been working with psychologists in private practice is how much we need to use some of our own stuff on ourselves. You know, how do we design our private practice, so that we're also strengthening ourselves because I always say private practice is one of the most emotional, emotionally demanding things that you can do. It is kind of confronting, to go out there and to, as you said, you know, Romy, say, I have opinions on this. And, you know, keep stretching that and keep challenging perceptions, not only of, you know, the topic you're talking about, but our own perceptions of who we are, as people, as leaders, in businesses, and so on. And Natalie, just picking up on your point that there's not yet maybe I need to write one. But there's not yet a manual for how we build these kinds of, you know, very different types of private practices. And, in fact, one of the things that really strikes me, and the reason behind this podcast is that, you know, it's not just me saying, this is the way that I think these private practices should be built. I think there are so many practitioners, you know, you guys are examples of them, where you are forging your moulds in a unique way. Like, it's like a fingerprint, it's kind of individual. So when we think about where you are now and the future of private practice, what hopes do you hold for your practice for yourself as a psychologist in this kind of uncertain, but very flexible, you know, fast moving world, and maybe for the future of private practice? And for practitioners out there? Yeah. Any thoughts about how you'd like to see those things developing in kind of hopes for the future? Natalie, how about you? Yeah.
What are your hopes for the future for psychology practices?
Dr Natalie Bodart
I mean, I guess just kind of going back to what I said earlier, really, which was about it just being a little bit more transparent in some way, that it's not a secretive, you know, thing that you shouldn't do, and then you have to kind of go on this massive learning curve, you know, almost there. And again, I don't know what's happening in the courses these days. And you know, whether there's been a shift and a change there, but, you know, I always feel like it'd be good for people to have a bit more choice really, and, but that choice, I think, can only come from more training, experience knowledge of different ways of working with different settings to work in, including private practice, so that it's not such a struggle to try and figure all of that out. And that so people can really make more of an informed decision about it, you know, so that they really know what those different options are. So I think that probably would be more of my you know, my hope and, yeah, just that sort of sense that people can feel a bit more confident and equipped. So there can be a real sense of de-skilling, sometimes of, you know, because actually training as a psychologist, you have like an incredible skill set. You know, we've been training for however many years. And I think sometimes we don't give ourselves the credit of having all of that incredible knowledge, so much experience with been working in all these different settings, and almost really feeling like we can have that confidence to trust our instincts or trust what we want and really, perhaps, go for that. And I feel like that's a practice that I have to practice a lot you know, in that holding hope that the practice will work and that I can make decisions and choices along that way, but also that I can bring the people in that I need to support me in those choppy waters. I don't have to be on my own with it actually that right now it's, you know, it's a journey that I can invite people into and will change and fluctuate. But, you know, just knowing that, you know, you can make those choices as you go along and hold the hope that that's going to work out in whatever way it does. I mean, there's a lot of uncertainty in it. But yeah, a few of my thoughts on that.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. So Tina, I know that your move to Dubai was recent. And so I'm just curious about now, how, given your kind of world and your contexts has shifted quite a lot, how does that influence the hopes you have for the future about private practice, but Brown Therapists Network? And about? Yeah, where are you at?
Dr Tina Mistry
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's interesting, because it's almost like I've got a chance to stop and think and assess what's happening out here in Dubai and Dubai is an incredible place, because there's lots of opportunity here. And what I've learned over the past two weeks, 12 weeks I've been is that you either do and you follow, and you work under somebody else's private practice, or you go out and create your own private practice, which you know, where I'm leading to. So for me, this is really exciting. Because there Dubai is there's lots of gaps within the sector of psychology, it just it there's so many things that I think that psychologists could provide an add value to. So for me, being the person that I am, I'm not a lone wolf, I am very much about who's who do I kind of see affinity with? Where am I seeing the gaps? Where could I put my skills to use and just being really creative, and I love that that's the piece that I really enjoy and being able to think outside the box. So where I am right now is doing a lot of that doing a lot of thinking, being creative with other professionals, not just psychologists, and seeing what we can co create for this specific community out here in Dubai, but also and beyond as well across the Middle East, because the Middle East, again, is very ripe. For you know, this, this new way of thinking psychology is a very new discipline here. It's not as established as it is in the UK. And yeah, I want to do more than just therapy, I want to kind of be in a really exciting space where I can inspire and continue to, you know, support others in their journey. And that's what I'm hoping Brown Therapists Network will continue to do.
Wendy Kendall
So yeah, amazing. I'm going to look forward to seeing the any kind of meetups that you manage to that you get organised in, in that area as well, because I can imagine there's going to be some, some awesome videos and photos and it'll be fantastic. Romy for you, I know that your business is going very, you know, it's growing like a rocket at the moment. I was trying to think of a suitable analogy then and I couldn't. But yeah, so for you, what are your hopes for the future? Yeah,
Dr Romy Sherlock
yeah, I think keeping up I think, is my kind of first hope. I think it's about how we've all touched on it really. And it's it just kind of comes back doesn't it's the fundamentals of community and connection and attachment and relationships, and all those kind of fundamentals that we have a psychologist with the people that we work with, but also for us in terms of having that that community of people who, you know, we're so excited that we just kind of started this off, as you know, not anticipating this to be the case, but that actually being able to work with people all over the country who are kind of paying geeks like us like this idea that is like, Oh, I love working with people with pain, great. But you know, people have kind of got a bit stuck in thinking, but I can only do that in a certain setup. I just didn't know how to work in it. I could do a bit of it in private practice, but I don't know how to work in a team and do that. And I think that's what we feel really passionate about is having that community of people it's like we can use our skills in a different way. And we can kind of support one another and kind of find that courage together of how to how to do that. So yeah, that's I think that's the thing that I feel most excited about, about developing.
Wendy Kendall
Awesome. So I think one of the things that I really take from this conversation is how when you start to kind of forge your own direction, and you do this kind of breaking free, it's, it's definitely in service of, you know, people who would be used as of psychological services. And that could be any of us. But it's al I think, a real, almost like act of leadership, it becomes a leadership role within a community of professionals as well, because I think what I really hear from all of you is that, that what you've done is had a knock on effect on other practitioners around you, you know, Tina, Brown Therapists Network is like, archetypal example of that. Romy you're describing there, how that multidisciplinary approach and that different mindset about pain is kind of calling to the courage of other practitioners around the country and getting them to think differently about what that practice could look like. And Natalie, I really see that that's, you know, your community approach that connection with places really kind of shifting and creating the form of community leadership around mental health as well. And, you know, drawing other practitioners in perhaps from communities too. So yeah, I think it's something I've really something I've really learned about this, from this conversation. So where can we find you all? Tina? Where I know brown therapists that work is still on Instagram, where it what are the other places that we can find you?
Where can we find you?
Dr Tina Mistry
I seem to be hanging out on LinkedIn a lot. That seems to be the now my favourite place to hang out. So you can find me at Dr. Tina Mistry on LinkedIn.
Wendy Kendall
Awesome, thank you, Natalie, how about you? What's your favourite place to hang out online?
Dr Natalie Bodart
Yeah, so there's the Bodart Practice.co.uk, which is our website. So yeah. And also Yeah, Dr Natalie Bodart on Instagram, so I probably posted most on there at the moment. And LinkedIn Dr Natalie Bodart, both are on there as well. We're on Facebook vote up practice. To so few places, I've not ventured into Twitter. I think that's a step too far for me.
Wendy Kendall
Awesome. And how about you? Romy?
Dr Romy Sherlock
Yeah, I am on LinkedIn and Twitter at Dr. Romy Sherlock. And we also have LinkedIn Retraining Pain page, and you can find our website at Retraining Pain.co.uk
Wendy Kendall
So you're a Twitter warrior. I don't think I recognise that you have to go and find you on Twitter. No,
Dr Romy Sherlock
no, I'm really not. When do you hang out there? But do you follow a lot of people on Twitter?
Wendy Kendall
Right, yeah, yeah, I always say Twitter's the Star Wars bar of the internet. So you can have some amazing conversations with a lot of trolls as well. Good on you for being there, too. Awesome. Thanks so much for this conversation today. I was really excited to speak to you all. And I just love the kind of lessons that you've shared with us. And so we will definitely put all of your links into our show notes. And on behalf of inspiring psychology practices and the inspiring psychologists podcast, thanks so much. And yeah, looking forward to seeing what happens in the comments. So see you next time, everyone. Thanks for listening.
