Wendy Kendall
Welcome everyone to episode three, from stigma to empowerment, changing the conversation on menopause and mental health through private practice. I'm Wendy Kendall, your host and today we're talking about a transformative and empowering topic, menopause and mental health in private practice. Our guest today is Dr. Becky quick, a clinical psychologist who's tailored her practice to support her menopause journey. And Simona Stokes, a counselling psychologist and founder of the menopause CBT clinic is shining a light on a topic that's often stigmatised or overlooked. These trailblazing women have channeled their personal experiences face challenges head on and transform them into a source of empowerment for themselves and others. In our conversation, we delve into the intuition that often calls us towards a deeper understanding of our personal needs. During this significant transition. Dr. Becky shares her profound insights into how she was becoming too enmeshed with her private practice, leading her to make a pivotal and courageous shift in her work. Simona also underscores the importance of reflecting on how our practices can embody a renewed sense of purpose and vitality that emerges on the other side of menopause. Whether you're experiencing this transition yourself or supporting others through it, the transformative possibilities of the menopause journey can be a beacon for change for your private practice. At after the episode, we invite you to connect with our vibrant community in the inspiring psychology practices Facebook group on LinkedIn or on our website at inspiring psych.com. That's inspiring, p s ych.com. It's time to break out of the box and redefine what private practice can be. Hello, and welcome to episode three of the inspiring psychologists podcast where we talk to practitioners to psychologists who are breaking the mould of private practice. I'm Wendy Kendall and today I am joined by Dr. Becky quick and Simona Stokes as we talk about the topic from stigma to empowerment, changing the conversation on menopause and mental health through private practice. And this has been a topic that has been all over the news. But it's also something that is fundamental to the experience of a lot of us in our private practices, both from the inside in terms of how we experience our private practices as we go through a big life transition such as menopause. And also, how psychologists through the medium through the use of private practice are also pushing back and shaping the conversation around and moving more from a position of stigmatisation about these conversations into a more empowered approach. So I'd love to welcome Becky Quicke and Simona Stokes to the podcast. Hello, both of you. So lovely to be with you this morning. Hi. So, first things first, I'd love to open up the mic to have a little bit of an introduction from each of you. So if I can start just by who's by you know the side of me on my screen, maybe starting with you Simona and then coming to you Becky around, you know who you are, what you're doing in your private practice who you are as a practitioner.
Simona Stokes
Okay, thank you for inviting me as a guest on your podcast Wendy. So I'm Simona Stokes, a counselling psychologist on CBT specialise then I also work with EMDR therapy within my practice, but I have been working as mental health professional for over 20 years. And I have experience in working in a number of settings I worked in voluntary setting many years back when I started my career in addiction so overseas, and then I moved to primary care services for many years I worked in, then private practice on and off while still working in an IHS. And then, six years ago, I jumped ship, I resigned. I'm one of those statistics that says, up to 10% of women can leave their job while going through the perimenopause and menopause. Now looking back at it, I can say that, but at that time, I was saying that there are so many other reasons and talking about stigma was like, Oh, I cannot accept that, God forbid, I am doing this because I just find work so overwhelming. At the time, I was, you know, a senior manager in NHS having a big grey made big budgets. So yes, the rest is history. So I set up calm, move, lock, stock, and barrel in private practice, set up an independent psychology practice. And it went from strength to strength through strength to strength, I had, I have a number of colleagues working with me as associates. But when the penny eventually dropped for me to hang on a minute, what I'm going through, it's actually linked to menopause, I started developing a really keen interest in menopause. And I started trying to research but more than anything else, doing more me search, you know, first instance, just trying to understand how to fix my head that started scrambling. And I just came to realise that maybe my clinical training hasn't equipped me enough to deal with the menopause. Because basically, we tend to come to any kind of head difficulties through the lens of what's happening in your mind, it's your perception. So I just learned that that's not sufficient. And then I started developing a different way of working with myself in a first instance, and then applying it with a client group that requires this women going through the menopause that in spite of whatever they are trying maybe lifestyle changes or and HRT is not sufficient to get them back on floating line. So I developed a model of working that are mentioned probably later on in our discussion, and I found that it's very effective working with this particular client time group as has been effective for me. So there is the kind of link of my personal experience with my clinical experience. And because of this, I set up the medical CBT clinic in 2020, because I already started doing a lot of work with menopause. And I have been advised through coaching that actually working with menopause issues within my general practice, you know, it's a little bit hidden, and those women that would require access to something like this cannot necessarily see me. So then I set up a separate service, which is the menopause CBT clinic, and the rest is history, three years down the line, you know, doing really well with this training other health professionals in the model that I have developed, and helping many women, you know, go through the stages of this process to find themselves and find that voice and move through that transition and thrive again. So in a nutshell, that's me.
Becky Quicke
Yeah, yeah. And this whole, I love that word me search. And having said that, one of the things that really strikes me is that a lot of our research and innovation in many fields comes from us recognising that there is a problem that needs to be solved. And, you know, often it's a pressing problem that we've come across. So, you know, for me, that is where a lot of research starts anyway. And so, you know, really interesting, and again, reflective of the way in which our private practices are often us solving issues that are very present in our lives as well, that resonate with us, too. So Becky, coming to you, and obviously you and I have known one another a few years now. So I know a little bit about your background, but I'd love to have an intro from your perspective, please.
Becky Quicke
And yeah, I was just reflecting actually, on Simona talking about working in the NHS been a senior manager and I've been thinking about my experiences in the NHS. I left the NHS in 2015, literally, first of April. So that's just been my anniversary after having my second child, but thinking back to my time in the NHS, the peep the women who were in midlife primarily, all took early retirement. I just think I just kept on thinking about all the different people that just I worked with most of them took early retirement and then left Yeah, left the NHS. I mean, obviously, I don't know what was going on. You know, I'm kind of now at this position, really curious, but there weren't women post menopause. I just can't remember them. When I was working in the NHS. I was thinking well, who was post menopause? I really don't remember. So anyway, that's just really interesting, isn't it? And that stigma about? I think, yeah, there's just a time at the time clinical psychologist and I think there's a huge stigma about being you're being a human being without being a clinical psychologist in a name it right there. There's an issue. It's really interesting. You said right, start off by telling us who you are, but Oh, yes. Ask a Peri menopausal or postmenopausal woman who you are is actually interesting, because that's the that's the role of menstrual cycle and then perimenopause and menopause to really sort of shed it all and actually distil everything into who you are. So, yeah. So I'm on that I'm in that process. Unlike Simona, who's kind of post menopause. I'm 45. I mean, I don't this is the thing. I'm kind of like, I don't know where I am in the process, which basically tells me that I'm Eno in perimenopause, and in this kind of lost kind of, who knows, time and so but in terms of my private practice, I currently run I'm currently an expert witness in the family courts. I have done that, since I left the NHS that's always been a consistent thread. And so yeah, I do kind of psychological assessments for children and parents within family courts. And I'm purely doing that now. And I feel really kind of passionate about us, creating a private practice that meets our needs. So I'm sure throughout our conversation,
Becky Quicke
you and I fully Concur on this, right? We may have had different paths. But I think we agree on this book. Absolutely.
Becky Quicke
I'm an expert witness work is, in my opinion, absolutely. Perfect. For women going through perimenopause and menopause, I've realised it's also perfect for those of us who are neurodiverse and who have ADHD and autism. I mean, I can talk a bit more about that. But I've kind of realised that the expert witness work so not doing therapy, I at the moment feel like I could not do therapy. I so doing expert witness work we go in we hyper focus on the on the assessment of what we spend most time at home, you go out and do the assessment, come back and spend many most all the other hours that your that your pay for is at home writing or reading reports. And it gives that space and time that I'm feeling is I really need at this time of my life. And having worked with women through menopause, because I haven't had a phase of being the menopause psychologist. And that's the theme, you know, needing time and space. And if we don't have that time and space, then things get really tight and constricted. And that's where the shadow side can really kind of come through and then rage and you know, so yeah, that's where I'm at now with family law psychology.
Becky Quicke
Yeah, yeah. And if I remember rightly, when we first had a conversation about working together, I think with the expert witness work that you were doing and the way you were working at the time, it had led to a position where you felt like a big change needed to happen. And then there was an arc of exploration that so this is how it looked to me anyway, but you've obviously got your inside perspective on that. What's your what's your perspective on on Share? Ange
Becky Quicke
Yeah, I birthed my private practice, like study 2015. And it was a position of having to leave the NHS because of it wasn't feasible for me to be a mom and continue working in the child psychology service, unfortunately. So I left the NHS and birth my private practice, and did what I did in the NHS in my private practice just literally transferred it. And I think that that makes sense. A lot of us do that. And in a way it started to I guess, I see that we have a relationship with our private practice. This is I mean, I didn't know this before I grew it. I didn't really I didn't talk about our birth, my third child, but I knew that it was kind of growing. But actually, this relationship and this journey of my private focus, I'm just going to talk about me and my experience, my private practice grew. And I was growing. And what happened was, I was doing therapy with children and families, as I had been doing in the NHS. And then it got to this point where on reflection, my private practice kind of hit adolescence. So I kind of had grown in it grown and developed. And I've become very, in, meshed. This is part of my pattern. That's, that's my stuff. But I became very enmeshed and very at one with my private practice, but it reached adolescence, I started to reach perimenopause, early 40s. And, unfortunately, in a way, it did come literally, in one moment, walking across the park, having left my daughter for her first day at primary school, why I suddenly thought, Well, no, I didn't think it I just had this message, I can't do this anymore. which scares the crap out of me. Because that, you know, and there had been no kind of, like, build up to this. So anyway, then, sort of, really, I felt like I really couldn't do any more therapy, I had to stop it. So kind of found. Yeah, which was, which was you. And that's where we kind of came together. And I guess my, my, I vented go on this site. So this arc of exploration and this growth, again, still very, very entangled. So my growth has really kind of gone alongside and together with my practice, in terms of I was really interested in women's empowerment, self doubt, all the stuff I was struggling with. And at the same time, I was working very, very intimately with my menstrual cycle. And that was my personal life, but actually realising that there's no one out there talking about menstrual cycles, and the power of the and, and, and whereas now I guess, what happened was that I realised that I was very much in my private practice, and I needed space. And I just couldn't do all the things I was on social media I was doing, and it was about to boom, I know that that business was about to hit mega time. And I knew I didn't have capacity for it. I haven't got the personal capacity for that right now. Where I am in my life. And so that's, that's absolutely fine. So I stepped away. And now I've got clear boundaries between me and my practice. And my practice now is very anchored, and very grounded, and we'll just be there steadily. I love it. It's so holding. It's I'm not completely enmeshed with it. Does that make sense? And so I go through my, my work and my, my practice, my own kind of, well, I'm just living, I'm living as I need to, I want to, you know, supporting my children, and in my life, and, and so that's where I'm at right now. And I feel like it's not that we don't talk about this and how we go through our own processes, and how our practices can support that, but also show us what will he show us what we need? Yeah, and we can create a practice that's hopefully suits our needs. And right now for me that space, and it's time, and it's quietness, and it's not with lots of people, and it's not on social media. Now.
Becky Quicke
Yeah, thank you for taking us through that journey as well. And with the insights on there, I mean, you know, episode one, I talked about the path of private practice and what I really hear from what you described, there was some of the realities, you know, the ups, the downs, the sideways moves, the realisations the reflections, the accelerations, the you know, putting the brakes on and shifting and so on. Simona would you is, you know, when you hear Becky, describe that story, what comes up for you, when you think about your own kind of shift and the development of two practices, essentially, you know, your general therapy practice and then more specifically around the minimum CBT clinic. Yeah, yeah.
Simona Stokes
Well, I, I really echo with Becky's story, because when I left NHS nearly six years ago, it's really interesting. You said first of April, I resigned on first of April. So, anyway, so I do resonate with this idea that we start, we can start only where we are at, and I was at the point of where I recognise my clinical skills and what I can do and thinking, Okay, I start out my private practice doing therapy. And because I worked in primary care for many, for many years, I was thinking, okay, that's my niche, although you can't say really, that's a niche, because that's almost everyone else's niche. So just as I started, you know, understanding a little bit more about my process, like what may be pushed me into choosing that bold move of resigning, I didn't even retire, I was too early for retirement, you know, so I just started recognising that this process, the menopausal transition plays such a big part in my decision. And by starting that process of self exploration has driven my interest and my work in a different direction. And there, you know, this kind of menopause work has started, because, you know, when you see it, you cannot not see it anymore, you know, so, some sometimes track this thought that, you know, over 20 years working in a technical field, I would have seen 1000s of women that were going through the menopausal transition, and not once I asked anyone about, you know, where, where they are at, and if, you know, they experienced any changes related to this, and you know, what, when the penny dropped, I can't stop asking that it's almost like even for younger women, you know, if they just tell me about some symptoms that might indicate that are hormonal changes that I'm going to explore, I'm going down that rabbit hole, you know, to try to understand. So, you know, coming back to your question, Monday, it's very much something about the way I grew up psychologically, the way I understood myself, the way my curiosity took me down a certain path, my practice, my private practice has evolved. And, you know, I am convinced that if I wouldn't have had that level of reflection and self awareness and curiosity to learn, I probably I would still do just general practice. Although I still do that, I don't want to say that I exclusively work just with women going through the menopause, I still do that. But more and more of my energy and my passion, it's in developing the menopause work, you know, the supporting women with of psychological difficulties associated with a menopause. So you know, like Becky, I can see how our personal lives and experiences in some respect dictate, you know, where we going. And when we don't listen to that voice, I think we can get to a dead end. Because I think for me, especially as we go through middle stages of life, it's so important to find our purpose. And the purpose we would have had, you know, maybe in our 20s 30s, early 40s is changing. And if we don't pay attention, we end that write down miserable. And I think that what really, I've learned about my own journey is that what was making me very miserable, maybe in my NHS job over and above everything, all the stress is that, you know, a job like I had, you know, was bringing into my life was this sense that I'm doing the same thing and no moving anywhere, and the sense of joy was shriveling inside me. And you know, now my kind of simple litmus test for purpose is, does it make my heart sing? And if it does, that's great, you know, I engage with that passion and joy, and then does it help someone else in some shape or form? So when these two conditions are met, I know that I'm on purpose. So I need to have the sense of joy and I need to know that whatever I'm doing helps someone in some shape They perform. And they might not even know that I'm trying to help in some respect. But if I have that kind of thing, thought that I think it's going to carry them a step further from where they are, maybe I feel like I'm doing the job worthwhile. And I really feel now that my, my private work has evolved has grown, because I use this kind of principle, like, I need to engage with my passion with my joy. And only then I can be giving to other people. Because if I give from an empty cup, I can't give too much. And I'm running on fumes, and I'm just going to be very depleted and designed fully been, whilst now I feel like I've got abandoned energy, because it's coming from that point of joy and passion that I want to share with others.
Becky Quicke
So sorry, I was just thinking that actually what's and you just came into that then, which I think is really important is about energy. It's absolutely massive going through our 40s and 50s. And the amount of energy we have, and we are not, as we were in our 20s and 30s. And we need and I think that if we don't have conversations like you're having here Wednesday about breaking the mould if we don't like having these, if we don't have them, what will happen? Well, what will happen is that we will all burn out. But if by having these conversations, it's saying I guess that our, the amount of energy we have is is obviously critical. And we can change our practice, you know, we may have been a therapist for very many years, or we may have been doing all the things. But actually, it's okay that that comes to a point where we recognise we haven't got that energy to do that role. And so we might need to, we might need to shift we might need to pivot or got while actually I don't see it as shifting pivot, I actually see it as shed shedding, we may need to get rid of parts of our practice to that. And I feel like that's what happens through this transition in life that we will we get if we do that, like Simone has done, actually, and this is the just the beauty of women, postmenopausal that are just really clear. And because we don't have as much energy, we're getting older. That's how it is we're getting older, we have a finite amount of energy. And it's about actually putting that in a very purposeful like Somoza say, in a purpose to rebut driven place lace. But I think there are a lot of psychologists in their 40s in particular going through perimenopause, who are struggling. And it's like because we can't do what we always did we need, we have to do something different. And they may be for a while, we do less of the things.
Becky Quicke
Yeah, and I'm just reflecting as well, first of all, I really enjoy this conversation because I feel like I'm getting group therapy. Because as you're kind of sharing things, I'm like, oh, yeah, making little kind of associations. So I was 49 at the weekend. So I'm between the pair a thank you. lol, I am the sandwich filler. I'm the filler in the podcast, which is. But it's really interesting listening to you both describe some of those events that were kind of initiating events that led you on a completely different track. And I mean, I, you know, I've been in private practice 20 years. But I would say it was it about 10 years ago. So I was, you know, just entering my 40s that were a bunch of stuff had happened. You know, business relationships, I thought were in one state turned out to be in an entirely different state. And I thought, well, that's just not going to work for me. And now I've got to go in an entirely different direction. And actually, it was probably timed with me just saying it like you said, Becky, I'm shedding all that. I'm not doing all of this stuff. You know, there's a bunch of baggage that I brought through my teens 20s 30s and probably been too busy raising kids running the business and all the other things. And you know, as you said, Becky Well, I had the energy, the quantity of energy for that. Were suddenly it was like know what I just, I'm not into that anymore. I'm going to share the things and that was what led to this process that ultimately then led to this business. And I mean, you know, this, you talked about, Becky our purpose is changing I think even Simona you said it Well, our purpose is changing. And, and that's the entire premise of this business. So here we are, once again, like you said, Becky, I'm just living, living my practice, you know, given the stage that I'm at. Yeah, so the other the one thing I would say, though, that I reflect on, as you were talking about energy is, and this relates to, like the people that I ended up working within this business as well, I think we talk a lot about energy as though it's a quantity of energy. And our quantity of energies may be shifting or changing or diminishing as we go through different parts of this menopausal journey. But what I would say is, the quality of our energy is also changing. So becoming more much more purposeful, and one of the things I'm really keen to do is to, and this is one of these regenerative principles, it's like, look at the stores of knowledge and wisdom that you have, that you have developed through your life. And as you said, you know, getting the space to reflect on all of this capability and knowledge that you've built up. And that's actually really, that's really fertile earth for this next stage for powering this next stage in our practices. So Simona, you know, you're talking about this research that you that you did, that you put together, creating your model, and so on. But that's come from a lifetime of energy stored in the form of wisdom and knowledge, and relationships with other people, you know, practitioners and, and within our profession, and so on. So, for me, all right, we can have a conversation that says our energy may not be, we may not have the same highest or quantity of energy, but I think we have a very qualitatively different energy as well, that we can harness Simona go on,
Simona Stokes
I need to say something, and there is something about this point about energy that Becky has raised, I think that our energy gets depleted, when we are not working on purpose, when we not listening to ourselves when we are just trying to meet everyone else's needs. But ours, you know, what I found in my experience, and what I see with women that I work with, is that when you get some clarity about what's important for you, when you get some clarity about what your passion is, where you can extract some kind of delight from life and from what you do, actually, that's, that's creating so much more energy, I feel I can say hand on heart, I feel like I've got more energy and more creativity now in my 50s, than I had in my 40s. I just feel like I can't keep old ideas in my head that like I have to, to download all the ideas, the knowledge, the wisdom, if you want to call it in that way. But it's just like, I feel like I've got that energy and these regenerative because I feel it matters to me. I feel like I make a difference to other people, I don't feel that it's just pleasing others, because it pleases me too. It gives me an outlet for my creativity and what I think it's important, you know, in terms of supporting other women in terms of this idea of sisterhood in terms of making a difference to someone else's life in whatever measure, sometimes maybe very, very, very small. But I think for me, that gives me a lot a lot of energy. And it's not just the quality, but the quantity, I feel like I'm abundant. I'm not working from a point of depletion, I'm working from a point of abundance, where I feel like I can spend this energy to do things because I've still got so much more in store and I know how to regenerate it.
Becky Quicke
Can I just say it's really wonderful to hear that because, you know, to hear that actually, you know that that is possible. And I and obviously, well, my reflection on you and what you said from your journey is that you have gone through that process. And you have risen you know, you've kind of worked out whittled everything down you're clear about the essence of who you are. And so therefore it's very focused. But actually that you know, and obviously you're working to help women do that, but actually a lot of people in pride Have a practice, if we don't have conversations like this can easily go down, you know, and easily get swamped and just keep doing the thing. And, and, and, and also, I wanted to say to anyone listening who's kind of in the 40s that because you kind of think, oh, I don't know what it is, I don't know what the question is, what's my thing like, you know, and in a way, it's kind of that doesn't really matter in a big way it's connecting in with yourself whatever that is, at that moment in time, you know, I'm not thinking this is me for you know, this is it forever sort of thing. It's just right now right now what? Right here right now what matters to me and focuses on me being able to live the life right now that that I want to live and hopefully by going through the process, you know, I'm hoping if I look after my health, my mental health my physical health, then something like Simone is describing is open and then Oh, my God, you know, when psychologists private practice, mostly postmenopausal - wow we could change the world!
Simona Stokes
You're saying something about, uh, you know, the passion. And you know, if there are people who are listening about this, oh, what's my passion, but I think that's one reason why we can get so down and depleted because we lose our sense of joy, we lose that sense of play, you know, and it's just really important to look at what delights us more than what enlightens us. And I think it's always you know, a little bit of a thing about purpose and passion, like, what how can I make big difference in the world is not about that. It's how can you make some difference first to yourself. So you can regenerate some of that energy, some of that passions, that sense of joy, and play, and then you can go out there and use that to share it with others. That's the bottom line. When you find what gives you the light and joy, and you're sharing it with others, you are on purpose. That's it. As far as I'm concerned, that's how I'm seeing.
Becky Quicke
Although it's a bit before it, I'm kind of speaking to those to you, when you are leaving your job, the bit before it, we may not in connection with Jai we are that our psyches are dying, we are literally, you know, and that's okay, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. There is a phase where actually you feel like you're in the wasteland. And that's okay, that's part of part of it. And we may not know, we may not connect with joy, we may be in a deep, dark place. And that's the initiation. That's the end point. That's the death point. And that's okay. It's part of the process. Feel like you're not even connected with joy. It's okay. Go with the process. That's what I just wanted to say.
Becky Quicke
Yeah, yeah. So many things came up for me, as you were, as you were both speaking there, I think one of the things that really struck me is how dynamic therefore, this process is right in a relatively short amount of time, because maybe we're talking 10 or 15 years, and when you're in 10, or 15 years, it goes quick. There's a lot that happens. And I know that one of the things that I end up working with people with is their sense of, oh, but I did a rebrand two years ago, so this should meet, you know, I should be alright now for five years. But when we're in these very dynamic phases of life, when and especially as you said, both of you, you know, if you're following that path to purpose, you know, going through the dark nights of the soul, going through a colleague, also going through the forest Fangorn, with my lord in the rings, metaphors, you know, going and then finding, you know, joyful moments and following those joyful moments and so on, but that, that can look and feel very different. And it may be directing our attention to different aspects of humanity, let's say. So, it makes sense to me. And I'm just reflecting myself on how in a, you know, in a similar way to what you've both described, in the last 10 years, I've had about four or five different brands, you know, I mean, it's almost a joke now the number of URLs I own for things. Have you bought the URL for that because another kind of thing comes in, but to me that Uh, you know, we, we do and I do work with people where they've been struggling with the fact that they only did the rebrand 18 months ago and it's not feeling like it's working for them anymore. Or, you know, they're just at the point of releasing the website, and it doesn't look right anymore.
Becky Quicke
I totally resonate with that. I think the brand, I mean, I think the branding process is so interesting, and it's on your personal growth, you know, how much I put into the personal brand. And the change, you know, and I think, oh God about everyone thinks I'm crazy, cuz I'm going on to a new part of the brand now, but what you're right, actually, it's okay, isn't it? If this is just kind of just say all of what we're talking about, is not in our training.
Becky Quicke
Oh my gosh, you know it's not part of life. I read a business book, you know, I've got various things that side of me, but no one says you're, you know, if you're if you're a woman and you're in a certain age lately, you'll go through about 10 brands. That bit there for you. Just another book there for me.
Becky Quicke
It's so yeah, it's great that you have these conversations saying that okay, it's actually really good either split flitting around, this means it's a process. It's a journey. It's great. Well, it better bloody happy.
Becky Quicke
Well, we'll see in five years time, we'll come back and do another one. Do a follow up. But um, yeah, that what you mentioned there that that thing of, oh, you're flitting around, I think that's one of the stigmatising stereotypes that we come across, it's like, you know, we've been talking here for well, 40 minutes or so about how much of a transformational journey can be, and how it has, you know, a promise of the future for ourselves and for society out there. And, and the words that get used from the outsider, you know, oh, you're flitting about, you can't settle anything, you keep changing your mind work, you know? When are you going to be all stable?
Simona Stokes
Well, that's called evolution. If we stay put, and we are sticking with one thing, we will never evolve, we will never develop and actually we dying, you know, I see why need to evolve. And, nonetheless, yes, life has got a span, and we will, we will come to an end of this life. And we have to contend with that in our own personal way. But while we are alive, we need to evolve, we need to transcend. And that means changing. And you know, change, it's part of everyday life. And now when I hear people saying, I don't like change, I can't do change. Well, while they're talking, actually, their body is changing, meaning I mean it and it's, it's inevitable. So I think we need to embrace it, and to evolve with change and to adapt to what's happening around us. Because if we don't, we are there while we are alive. And that's not necessarily very good kind of way of living, as far as I'm concerned.
Becky Quicke
Quite. So true.
Becky Quicke
Can I just say about private practice and the menstrual cycle, and how the thought of working in a service where I used to work now that I've actually realised and then also how to live in cycle there. But now that I kind of like, oh, this is why I'm different. This is why I change every couple of weeks. That that that just didn't support that. So you just had to keep doing the same things every day. Whereas been in private practice, we have the autonomy and the empowerment, you know, we can empower yourself. And so I run my whole life, my whole business, my whole relationship. My parenting is run by my menstrual cycle, I kid you not, my girls know.
Becky Quicke
I believe you because I've seen it.
Becky Quicke
So everyone, now the whole of it. And you know, my daughter's about to start hairs and we will you know, and in terms of my business, I don't go out and assess I have I don't do anything. When I menstruating. I'm still menstruating. So when I'm bleeding, and now I'm kind of like well, of course, how could I possibly do anything differently? But I've also heard about people who are therapists because I know that I can plan my work easier but if you are a therapist, I know about some therapists who, and I love this, who will say to their clients, so today, I'm able to give you and it will be different. So sometimes it's I'm able to really, really tune into a deeper, deeper level of what's going on. Or sometimes it's like, I can give you practical, we can go practical, but actually, I really will really struggle or, you know, we're human beings and you can't kind of, I think that's really important. They've got a major stigma, a real shift and kind of thinking around us as therapists and this is, how we are and how human we are. Yeah, yeah. Go on.
Simona Stokes
I think that is something about the society per se, not only therapy services, or psychologist in NHS, and I think that is something about the patriarchal society. And you know, we talking about disadvantaged women through the generations and how we still hate that glass ceiling. And, you know, we are fighting against it. But at the end of the day, I think we have to accept that the rules of engagement within work environment have been set by men, for men. And that would not take into consideration necessarily, you know, this changes that you are talking about where our hormones are through the month, I listened to a very interesting podcast recently on Dr. Chatterjee. So I don't know if either of you follow, he had a guest lay the mean, the pelts and they were talking about fasting for women, and how this particular woman when they pout, me mean, the power, sorry, has developed a way of fasting for women that takes into consideration the hormonal changes. And, you know, it's just incredible. When you step back, and you think, you know, we are expected to work, you know, according to very old rules, eight to six, or eight to five, or whatever rules, and everyday is the same, and that is no change. But we our bodies are going through many changes. And I think that especially over the last five years, it's much more of a discourse around the menopause and is much more accepted. But before that, you know, menopause was like a taboo subject and so much stigma. Women wouldn't dare to talk about menopause in work environment. And, you know, actually think about your clinical training, did anyone tell you how to work with hormones and mental health? Now, they, you know, I haven't yet met a psychologist that told me yes, you know, I had something in my training about this subject. And that's again, because it's almost like women's issues, and we have to manage them in silence. And we, we have to cope, we have to adapt to the man's world for the man's world. And, you know, I think maybe the discourse is changing. And that's the, the narrative piece, the social narrative, that's very, very important, because that will give us scope to address these issues in in a much more adaptive way, and winning friendly way. And I'm delighted that we are at this stage in, in another stage in my career and the stage in my life, where we can have these discussions in a very open way.
Becky Quicke
Yeah, I saw that the England's lionesses, the first time 2023, for the first time, wearing dark blue shorts, you know, for the kits, they used to have white tops, and white tots like the men. And I saw that this morning, I thought, yes. Because equality is about embracing, accepting, and understanding the needs and meeting that need. It's not about being the same. It's about having the need, and I imagine they'll feel much more comfortable. Because they may be on their period when they're having a map, you know, playing a match. And it's the same with us. It's like, actually, it's about knowing what our needs are, and that they, you know, and meeting those needs. I mean, it seems so simple. Evolutionary.
Becky Quicke
Yeah. I mean, we know that there's a dearth of research on, you know, a lot of the intersections of being female, and whether it's work, whether it's sport, whether it's drugs, whether it's you know, what's her name, Carolyn Criado, oh, gosh, I'm mixing up the words now. But she wrote a book about invisible women, about the lack of women in research and, and I know, you know, working with them alongside my daughter who's really who's, who's an athlete herself, but also real really interested. And I think also perhaps because of some of the conversations we had Becky, where she also then got really interested in the implications of her cycle for, for training and so on. But the thing that really strikes me with all of this Simona, you mentioned, the patriarchy and the way in which rules have been defined. But what it also comes back to, for me is what I talk about in terms of extractive models of business models that treat people as components in a machine, not human beings who are living systems. And interestingly, I was recently at an event, a climate coaching event. So thinking about how coaching psychology can be used to support people, as we face, you know, what's happening in terms of climate and environmental degradation. And thinking about the changes required in how we run businesses and how we live. And one of the comments that came up was, there's an there's an aspect of us needing to embrace the reality of of dying, not just in a kind of mortality sense, but this shedding element, this getting rid of this, you know, what does it look to allow an extractive and destructive system to die, so that something else can replace it. And we don't do that stuff really well in our culture around death and dying. And but what you've described to me in this conversation is that, you know, to me, it really feels like the bigger in the bigger importance of this experience, which is, in a sense, as being the change that we want to see in the world. So letting go of these, I know that, you know, I did it, and I've been helping other people to stop doing it, which is bringing extractive models that we learned as psychologists into our private practices. And, you know, I've, I gave myself burnout, in my private practice, like I had burnout when I worked in the UK public sector, because I came in with the same kind of way of being, and then had to relearn a different way of being. So. Yeah, okay. I know, we could probably keep going for another hour and a half here. Sit around.
Wendy Kendall
And I guess question for each of you is, what are your hopes for the future in terms of the evolution of this topic? And maybe, you know, what would be your kind of words of inspiration for people approaching or going through this process?
Becky Quicke
Okay. I'm going to be really specific. I mean, gosh, talking about the hopes the future is, but I'm going to be really specific. And I really hope because we struggle, the family courts do not have enough good experts. And it's a massive issue, huge issue. And I really hope that that, that on one level, you know, that more people kind of come into this work and, you know, can supplement people's other areas of work if they wanted to, or actually focus on being an expert witness, whilst going through, I just think it fits so beautifully. While we're going through the transition, maybe hormonal transition, or any other tricky part of life for lots of reasons, actually, to be an expert witness, and to be a clinical psychologist or counsellor psychologist, in the, in the in the courts is a wonderful thing to do. And there's a lot of anxiety around court work, but actually, it can really meet your needs and meet the needs of, you know, firstly, for me family work, and some of the courts the kind of needs of kids that desperately needed. So, yeah, I'm growing my, towards the end of this year, I'm planning on taking on a small, very small number of associates and, and with that in mind, really, you know, with people who are thinking actually, I just want to know I've got set income coming in. I have space, and I just think that works beautifully with that with menopause. So yeah, bringing on some, some associates so that's, that's very specific. corral witnesses? Yeah, that's happened.
Becky Quicke
Think about that in your practice? And also, I think, because we'll definitely get your No, it's not so much social media, you're on LinkedIn, but also your website details will be in the show notes. So Yeah, it's about to be launched.
Wendy Kendall
Perfect. So Simona for you, what are your kind of hopes and aspirations for the future? Specifically?
Simona Stokes
Okay, generally for me, the hope for the future is that mental health during the menopausal transition, it's much more open subject of conversation out there. At the moment, I feel that, yes, menopause is much more into people's consciousness so much more, it's happening in the media, many more people talk about physical symptoms of the menopause. And you know, what that my create for women, the difficulties, but I still feel that mental health aspect related to the menopause is now that much spoken about. And it really pains me to say that because probably, if you worked in NHS, or you now mental health, it's always the Cinderella of health, you know, always gets less resources, allocated budgets, and everything else, the services are always more squeezed. And, you know, it pains me to see that the same dynamic, it's present now, when we talk about the menopause. So yes, physical health in menopause, it's very important, I don't want to detract from that. But mental health, it's so important to, and I would like you now to see more people getting engaged with this work. And I would like to see more psychologists and more mental health professionals, learning the impact of hormones on the brain. And then ultimately, because our brain, it's affected, the way we think, the way we feel, the way we behave, it's changing, rather than thinking that's all in a women's mind is not in our mind, it's in our brain, how the hormones are affecting us. And I would like you know, all health professionals to nowadays, and also, I would like more mental health professionals to know how to work with this in a therapeutic clinical way. I don't deny that menopause, you know, it's bringing a host of challenges for women in respect to sense of identity, who loss of fertility, who am I now sense of purpose, all of that can be dealt very well with psychological approaches. But I think we really need to acknowledge the side of how the hormones are affecting our brain, and therefore how changing our thinking and feeling and behaving is changing. And there again, are a whole host of strategies that can be shared with the general public, to support women to navigate the choppy waters of the menopause. So my hope is really that more people talk about mental health in menopause. And I've seen this regrettably, so much where women can go on HRT, and they notice a change in how they feel physically, because of the menopausal physical symptoms being kept in check, by the, by the hormones, but then the psychological component is not necessarily always addressed. And I have seen this where, you know, some women are given higher and higher and higher doses of HRT in a hope that the psychological symptoms would vanish. But the psychological symptoms are not always just related to the hormonal levels. The hormones are important or addressing something that rebalancing our body, but menopause, it's also about the psychological component of the of this transition, and we need more mental health professionals to know how to support women through that change. So that's my hope for the future. And if we have this conversation in another either now or three years, you know, and we know that then it's a campaign about make mental health in menopause smarter. It's out there out now that we made progress because for the last few years, Dan done some breathing. She's done magnificent work in terms of, you know, raising awareness about menopause and she's been talking about or she campaign this kind of movement, make menopause matter, which is fantastic. But now would like to see a campaign on make mental health in menopause matter. So let's hope that maybe that would gather some momentum. And in a few years, everyone knows about the psychological dimension of the menopause. And every health professional would know how to assist women with that side of menopause and not just prescribing HRT or not just prescribing antidepressants, because that's not the answer.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, as I've listened to both of you, I think the thing that really strikes me in terms of hopes for the future is that we don't just approach this transitioning women's lives as something to manage so that we can carry on extracting energy out of them, that we actually realise that it's a huge opportunity in terms of female entrepreneurship. It's a huge opportunity in terms of different models of leadership and different kinds of visions for organisations, you know, come in with my occupational psychology hat on a little bit here, but instead of losing these women in senior positions, because the system just will not budge, actually, you know, women in this phase are changemakers. are people breaking moulds or people with, you know, who are doing that for themselves. And also, as you mentioned, that, you know, lots of owner driving that change potentially, in in bigger parts of the system. And so for me, success would look like embracing that transformative potential, the bigger level of the system, and, you know, not just trying to squash it out of women through whether it's through HRT, or whatever, you know, whatever the approach is. Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation, both of you. It's been absolutely fascinating. And terrific. So where can where can we find you? Simona? What's your website address?
Simona Stokes
Well, my website address is menopause CBD clinic.co.uk. I'm on Instagram still as menopause CBD clinic. On Facebook, I think it's thriving beyond 40. Yes. And then on LinkedIn, obviously, I'm there and you will find my profile. And I post quite regularly and I, yes, I post about the ideas about different topics related to menopause and mental health. And also I post about training that I'm providing free and free webinars for professionals doing webinars for women, that also, you know, webinars, paid webinars and training professional training programme for health professionals that are keen to learn strategies to support women during this transition.
Wendy Kendall
Perfect. Thank you. And we'll make sure everything is in the show notes as well. And Becky, I know you said your new website is just ready to be born.
Becky Quicke
Yeah. I will mention, I was prolific on social media for a few years as the Menopause Psychologists so I'm I'm not active on there, but there is actually a lot on Instagram. If you look at menopause psychologist, there's loads there and lots of resources. But yes, Family Law Psychology, the website's about to go live. Yeah, I'm not majorly contactable. In terms of psychology psychologists in the future is thinking about doing associate work them at the Family Law Psychology, and I am doing that at the moment.
Wendy Kendall
Awesome. Thanks so much, both of you. And yeah, looking forward to seeing in the comments on our live stream as well. Thank you, everyone. And I will see you again next week for more inspiring psychologists who are breaking the mould of private practice. Bye.
Thank you. Bye.
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