Wendy Kendall 0:17
Hello, and welcome to episode four of the Inspiring Psychologists: Breaking the Mould of Private Practice podcast. And we are also going live right now on LinkedIn. And in a moment, I'm going to be introducing my guest today. But this, I just want to have a word about this topic as well, because looking at the intersection of entrepreneurship and mental health in private practice, I always say that being in private practice is one of the most emotionally confronting opportunities available to us. And so I really feel like a lot of us come into private practice, from environments that may not have been conducive to our mental health. And there are really real opportunities to create healing environments for ourselves. And yet, at the same time, you know, wherever I go, there I am we, we still have to work with ourselves to you know, to help our mental health and so on. And plus, obviously, a psychologist in private practice, we're often supporting other entrepreneurs in their businesses. So I'd love to welcome my guests to the podcast for today. That's Dr. Tess Brown, Dr. Tina mystery, who is joining us again, and Dr. Hannah Bryan. And these are all some of my favourite people in the world, I have to say I do enjoy working with them. So yeah, coming to all of you, I just wanted to give you an opportunity, first of all, to introduce yourselves. So maybe starting with Timo if that's all right, I just mentioned that. That You Are we already saw Tina, I met Tina in episode two of this podcast. But I really wanted to get you back here, Tina to talk about this intersection of mental health and private practice. So please just give a bit of an intro to who you are. And in this context of helping entrepreneurs with their mental health.
Dr Tina Mistry 2:45
Yeah, sure. Thanks. So I'm Tina mystery. I am a trained clinical psychologist. I'm the founder of the brown therapist network, which is a community it's a network space where South Asian therapists from across the globe come together and connect. And this is a particular passion of mine to support people who are navigating through the mental health context of working within systems that sometimes can be wearing, you know, on practitioners. So that's one area that we definitely look at, for sure.
Wendy Kendall 3:18
Yeah, perfect. Thank you for that. And I think also, recently, some of the posts that I've spotted from you on LinkedIn have been around the intersection of mental health in cybersecurity startups. I know this was something that we've had a really interesting conversation about.
Dr Tina Mistry 3:41
Yeah, absolutely. It's an area that I think, is definitely emerging. And we can see it across all different sectors, right, we can talk about healthcare sector, we can talk about our doctors, we can talk about nurses, we can talk about midwives, we can talk about these specific professionals or populations that work in what we would class as high stressful jobs, and how important it is to put to them mental health as a conversation as something that we need to be forward planning and thinking about because I think what I'm seeing across the within the business space is wellbeing and wellbeing, washing. And actually what that looks like, in real terms, when I was working in the UK, as a psychologist was, I was working with a lot of professionals who were burnt out by the systems that they were working within. And this could be, you know, consultants working in, you know, the big four, or it could be doctors, nurses and teachers. So I see how these systems actually often aren't supporting, you know, people that are working in these type of environments, and cybersecurity is one of them. That is equivalent to you know, somebody who's working in a high stressful high emergency situation.
Wendy Kendall 4:53
Yeah, yeah, in that kind of fast growth, fast paced, high risk environment as well. kind of exacerbates a lot of issues potentially. So coming to you now, Tess, please give an introduction to yourself.
Dr Tess Browne 5:10
Sure. Thanks, Wendy. And so, like Tina, I'm also a trained clinical psychologist, I am based in the UK now, after a period of working overseas. I founded a private psychology practice called the mind Atelier. A, which offers online therapy, coaching and training services. And a lot of what I do a lot of the work I focus on is with people in the business space entrepreneurs, and business owners. And a lot of the work that we're focusing on is either around coming back after burnout or preventing burnout. So yeah, this topic is something that's sort of very close to my heart, both professionally and also personally as a business owner, as well.
Wendy Kendall 6:01
Yeah, exactly. And it really struck me as well, because you spent a long time or, you know, period of several years, also working in Hong Kong in that environment, and supporting people in that kind of, you know, how, what, what we might consider to be a highly entrepreneurial environment as well. Right. And quite demanding and so on.
Dr Tess Browne 6:22
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so I've, I've, I feel like I've seen both ends of this. I've seen it when people can really flourish in entrepreneurship and really create a business that is built around their mental health sometimes as the main priority. But also the other end of that spectrum as well. Where work is kind of a key stressor that's having a negative impact on a person's mental health. So yeah, it's a really important topic.
Wendy Kendall 6:53
Thanks a lot. Thanks, Tess. And Hannah, last but not least, could you introduce yourself please?
Dr Hannah Bryan 7:56
Okay. Okay. So yeah, I'm Dr. Hannah Bryan. I'm a clinical psychologist, worked for many years in mental health services for the NHS. And now I'm full time in private practice focusing mainly on working using EMDR. I'm also an EMDR, consultant and facilitator, really passionate about that approach, and really passionate about helping business owners helping people, entrepreneurs with their mental health, similar to what I picked up tests were saying earlier as well about how it's such a, you know, an important personal journey as well as been hugely active in the businesses that we work with. So yeah, that's me.
Wendy Kendall 8:39
Yeah. And I know, one of the things in particular that I've seen that you've been developing, you know, when I look at your LinkedIn content, and so on is around the using EMDR, which is a very particular kind of therapy to help people with performance blocks, as well. And I know that was a little bit of an innovation on your behalf, as you were kind of progressing in your EMDR practice, right?
Dr Hannah Bryan 9:06
Yeah, exactly. It came from a place of feeling quite burnt out and quite tired by a lot of really difficult stories that we hear in private practice and a lot of trauma work that we do. And I kind of felt like I need something a bit more lighter. You know, I still love doing that work and want to do that. But I don't think it's good to do too much of that all of the time. So I'm always trying to find a different way of thinking how can I use my psychology? How can I use my EMDR to work with something that's not necessarily about the deep traumas and the really deep psychological symptoms, but perhaps something a bit more about wellbeing and a bit more about how can we get people to function at their best and how can we get people to, you know, step into a different version of themselves and be able to be different In the world, so that came from some of the TPPA work that I've done with yourself.
Wendy Kendall 10:05
Yeah. And what you raise their hand is a really interesting point, which is about also, you know, as Tina and Tessa both alluded to the impact of the kind of work that we do within our private practices, and how focusing mainly in areas where on a daily basis, somebody in their in their job in their role may be dealing with distressing or distressed people, or distressing topics and or distressed people over time, actually, there's a need to, it's one of those things that I see really driving people to want to diversify their own private practices, because it can just be too much on an ongoing basis, as from a human point of view. And I'm just wondering, what are some of your experiences? Tina, I don't, I think this might be something that you can relate to as well.
Dr Tina Mistry 11:14
100%? Yeah. So my story is similar to, you know, most clinical psychologists trained in the National Health Service. And then I kind of pivoted to different sectors. So I've worked in education, I've worked in charities, I've done a lot of trauma work, so I was working for a period of time, where the victims who had homicide, you know, within their families, so, you know, trauma is pretty much part and parcel of what I have just developed a specialist niche in, I worked in brain injury. So again, traumas there, and then you know, I kind of continued even on within my private practice that trauma was a hugely prevalent issue, because I was mainly working with, you know, burnt-out stressed-out professionals that were being traumatised by the system. And then I then started to Nish a bit more, and I worked predominately with South Asian people. Now, South Asian people have different layers of trauma, so they could have, you know, kind of generational trauma, intergenerational trauma, as we call it. And these are the topics that just kept coming up. And you know, when it when you're constantly being pulled in this direction, and when it feels quite close to the things that you might have experienced as a human being, I feel like that that's when you start to feel like actually, this needs to change, this needs to shift. And that was the point for me, you know, especially during the pandemic, where I felt like, oh, my gosh, this is too much like, we're already dealing with COVID people have got all these issues I'm trying to deal with, you know, my own issues. And then we've got these, you know, and I'm sitting with these very heavy topics that keep coming up. And I exacerbated by the fact that, you know, people want to talk about trauma, all of a sudden, it became this really cool topic. And it just got to a point where I just thought, actually, I need to take care of myself. And that's when I decided to just take a step back from that piece of work.
Wendy Kendall 13:11
Yeah, yeah, I'm putting through that as well. So, Tess, I know that some of the discussions we've had, that you've also been asked, and you've been developing a service around supporting the mental health of people in private practice. And so I think it sounds as though this might be something you've come across as well, right?
Dr Tess Browne 13:37
You Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Both professionally, and in the people that I've kind of coached and supervised, and I worked with. Yeah, I think, for me, my sort of passion in this topic came, because I, so I kind of ended up working in private practice, because at the time I was working for the NHS, and in a specific trauma role, actually. So it was just a part time job. So you know, bills necessitate the fact that I needed to have a little bit of extra money. And it was very conscious decision, actually not to do my private work in trauma so that I was doing something a little lighter, didn't always work out that way. But that was kind of the intention. And then with the subsequent move over to Hong Kong, I was kind of forced to go into private practice full time at that point, because I don't speak Chinese certainly enough to work within the public health system. And so that's kind of where I started working privately. But I definitely remember a point where I felt Yeah, I just could, I could feel like I was starting to feel quite burnt out. I started to notice symptoms of compassion fatigue with some of the clients that I was working with. I'm actually like Tina, this was also around the time of COVID and pandemic. But I also think for me, it was timing in that I think I'd be feeling this way for a while I've had, I then had sort of two maternity leaves quite close to each other. So that gave me a little bit of respite. But then coming back from my second maternity leave, with no further maternity leaves part of the plan, I just felt like something needs to change in order to make my business sustainable, and to make this this career of mine, like long term and healthy for myself. So that was really the point for me where I, I decided that something had to change and, and that's where I put a few a few things in place, really. And for me, the things that I put into place were things like, well, one of the things that I had noticed was that I felt like I was kind of plateauing. I guess, unlike when I worked for the NHS, and there would be appraisals, and there'll be a lot of opportunities for career development, and even promotions and so forth. When you're working for yourself, you don't really have that. And so I kind of had to create my own way of advancing. So for me what that looked like, was actively working towards my EMDR accreditation, which is actually where I met Hannah. She became my supervising me through that process. But that was really a key part for me in terms of preventing burnout, burnout, and keeping me passionate about what I was doing, because I felt like I was actually working towards something, I felt like there was a goal at the end of it, which felt really, really important to me. And then I did a few other things like I niched down, I was seeing quite a broad spectrum of clients before, I sort of niche down to focus on working with clients, that I particularly enjoyed or particularly felt skilled at, I switched my schedule around to make it work around other aspects of my life that are important to me, like exercise and spending time with my family and, and those sorts of things. And really, through doing that, and I guess sharing a bit about that journey on social media, I then have more and more clinicians kind of contacting me for sort of coaching and mentorship opportunities, because they could see that that's how I've evolved. And I guess they wanted to some guidance on how they might do that. That as well. So that's really where it kind of began.
Wendy Kendall 17:19
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking about some of the aspects of my own journey in this area. I remember when I first went into private practice. And I alluded to this in the introduction, which was I was definitely exiting a toxic environment. And there was definitely an element of I mean, I move countries as well, I don't, I don't know that it was, I don't know if it was the same for you, Tina, but I definitely felt as though this was a positive move, I was moving to a new country, but I was definitely exiting a place that had not been great for my mental health. And I know that that disruption, and that going into my own business, on the one hand, was incredibly liberating, because it felt as though, you know, it was up to me to create something that was good for, for me, but it was incredibly confronting as well, because now it's up to you, and it's down to you. And, and then that sense of kind of sense of overwhelm, you know, there's always that sense of a fine balance between growth and overwhelm, and just always somehow playing on that, that edge. Moving to France also meant that I was, you know, moving to a place where I had to develop a professional identity, a new professional identity, that that, you know, seek a log do to have a work psychology in France is not the same profession as it is in the UK, or maybe in, you know, as an IO psychologists in the in the USA. And so, there wasn't really a word to describe what I what I did, and as well as that, I just didn't kind of gel with the idea of doing therapy in my second language, which is interesting. You know, thinking about Tina, for example, the people you work with, and the availability of therapists in home languages, basically, in first languages is, you know, there's not necessarily that level of diversity in in a lot of countries. So I ended up creating a, I think, a CBT based self study programme for myself, I was my own guinea pig. And that was really, as you mentioned, tactic was a way that I could flex my business around my own needs. In fact, I think it might be new Tina, who kind of mentioned that, that it's, you know, but having your own business energy, those opportunities as well. Yeah. So when you think about kind of this topic of resilience and growth and mental health ship and entrepreneurship, what really kind of brings it home for you as to why it's so important. And maybe coming to you, Hannah, because I know that, you know, I think this story has lots of layers for you as well, perhaps.
Dr Hannah Bryan 20:36
Yeah, it's, it's really interested in you know, this, this idea of resilience is something that I don't know of, I feel similar that I want to kind of pull away from thinking that we want everybody to be really resilient, because, you know, that puts the onus on us. And I can remember at my interview for my doctorate in clinical psychology, that we really had to talk about how resilient we were and how we like, weren't to troubled by anxiety or depression and how you know, we were, we were just not normal human beings, when nothing's ever happens and can cope with anything, just throw it out.
Wendy Kendall 21:15
Why, oh, that was the doctorate interview, that they were like, gatekeeping. At that level.
Dr Hannah Bryan 21:21
That's how I experienced it. That's how I felt. So I think I spent such a lot of time in my career thinking that it was this division that it was, what was his clinical psychologist that perhaps have all the knowledge to help people with the mental health, and then there's all those people out there that need help with mental health. And, you know, it just sounds ridiculous when I say that out loud. Now, because when I think back to my journey, when I started to struggle with my own mental health had a lot going on. In my life, my sister was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I was in a toxic place of work that wasn't much support, I started to not feel right, it just, yeah, wasn't a really good time. But it took me a long time to realise, you know, my mental health is good, not good. I've got to do something about this, which is then led to this whole journey that I've been on over the last four or five years, which has just been, like, amazing, really, when I look back, but it just fascinates me that even though I'm a clinical psychologist, even though mental health all the time, I was still from this perspective, that we couldn't really experience these difficulties that are just part and parcel of being human. And so now I like think about it the other way around, really, and you know, everybody has these issues, no matter where you are, or the experiences that you've been, and it's normal to have them, but we can find ways of coping and different ways to be which we weren't never been encouraged to do. So when I think now how I treat myself as my own boss in private practice, you know, I do so much stuff for my well being, or, you know, a journal, every day I meditate, I did that when I was working for somebody else, I would have a spa session as regular as I can. And it's all these things that, you know, are keeping me mentally well enough. And then the knock on effect of that this is where I think it ties to entrepreneurship is that I know, you know, most of the time, I'm more creative, I come up with new ideas, I can work much better. Whereas before, it was like no work, work, work, shift down what you're feeding, and just keep going. So I think I can't have been working very well, really compared to what I feel that I deliver and produce now.
Wendy Kendall 23:49
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like we bring there is there is the risk that we bring those x, I've said it before, those extractive ways of working, you know, work ourselves to the bone work all the hours, God sends, don't take enough holidays, all those things that would be you know, really, I think for a lot of a lot of companies will kind of get ticks in the boxes, you know, highly dedicated, etc. And sometimes we bring those into our own businesses as well, and kind of set up a culture around that and which then gets celebrated to. So coming over to you, Tess and Tina, do any of those facets, kind of resonate with your own experiences and why this is kind of an important area for you as well. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Tess Browne 24:48
Absolutely. I just think I just think they're so interlinked aren't a kind of entrepreneurship and your mental health. And I think, you know, as you've all sort of mentioned a lot a lot of people And then we'll move into setting up their own business because they're trying to escape some of the stresses and some of the consequences of those stresses that they might be experiencing when they're working for somebody else. But of course, being a business owner brings its own stresses and its own sense of overwhelm as well. And I think there's a balance isn't there in that you can create a business, which prioritises your mental health, and facilitates you to do the things which are going to nurture your mental health like making time to journal or, or go to the gym, or finish at a time when you can pick up your kids, if that's important to you, or whatever the thing is. But also, I think being a business owner or being a business owner also kind of puts you at risk or vulnerabilities to other sources of stress and overwhelm. Because, you know, for example, like I find it hard to switch off, because it's my business, there's always more I could be doing in the business and in the business to help it to thrive. And so, I think you have to be really conscious and really intentional about setting and upholding those boundaries, which mean that you can get that balance right between running a successful business, but also managing successful sort of healthy mental health at the same time. And I think it's a constant, it's a, it's a constant, not a battle unnecessarily. But it's a constant issue to keep coming back to because it just ebbs and flows. And, you know, we can day in, there'll be different, different pressures that leave you feeling more burnt out or more rested, and so forth. But I think personally, one of the huge advantages I find a bit of having my own business is that I'm the one making those decisions, actually. So if I do notice, that I am beginning to notice symptoms of burnout, or, you know, if my partner mentions that I'm, you know, working into the evenings or you know, a bit a bit more snappy, then I can consciously make a choice to create a change, to pull back from that in a way that when you're working for somebody else, you don't have that freedom to do that. I think that's really powerful. And for me, that's something that says that that kind of control is something for me that I really, really like, and it makes me feel like I got more control of my mental health as well, because I could do that.
Wendy Kendall 27:36
Yeah, yeah, it just strikes me that sometimes, I had, I remember having this experience where I literally had an internal negotiation about booking my own holidays. And you know, when you were in a job, and you had to fill in a sheet, I don't know if you ever had to do this, but it's fill in a sheet right to say, Oh, I'm going to book some time off in these days. And there's always that little thing of Do you think my boss is going to let me do that? My how much of a jerk is my boss? When you're having a conversation with yourself about how much of a jerk is your boss? In your own business? That's maybe when we start to think about, okay, how do you help that part of ourselves? That is being a bit of luck to the rest of the inner leadership team in this business, to maybe renegotiate how they show up in that role. But it can be really hard because we do have those kind of inner driving in a striving inner critic. And I feel like in entrepreneurship, because there is such a, there's actually a closer link between the results we see in the business and the activities we do as an individual, it's not a perfect one to one link, you know, we don't just put an hour of effort in and immediately see, you know, a bunch of payoff. But I feel like compared to enormous organisations, in particular, there's a much closer link. And in that sense, we can find some of the kind of, you know, high striving, high demanding those kinds of things that in a in a, in an a bigger organisation might be called, you know, toxic culture, that we might get into some of that and we'll be getting the payoff for it as well as in life, and I really loved what you said Tina, about how about we build a business that supports our mental health first and foremost? What would that look like? And coming to you, Tina, because I'm also mindful that you made a that big life shift around some of this as well. So that must have kind of, that must have been a really kind of interesting experience for you?
Dr Tina Mistry 30:03
Yeah, I mean, reason we came out here wasn't because of me. And because I'd had enough of the UK, it was, obviously a family decision, it was my husband who actually got great opportunities to come out here. I guess just wanted to pull on something, actually, because I think one of the things that when I was looking at private practice many, many years ago, my fear was around the isolation and the impact of being isolated without a team. And that's one thing when, you know, as you were talking test, and Hannah was, that was like, my practice in 2016 17, it was, I didn't realise how bad I felt without having people around me. And I was kind of just drilling into this private practice world. So it was right for me, and it was right for me. But I think the, the sort of fantasy is that you, you know, you, you think that everything will be fine. But actually, it's really important to have the right people around you as well. And I know that, you know, a lot of discussions you will have as clinical psychologists who are working within teams, is their biggest fear is that isolation part? And how heavy a toll that is that can have on your mental health. So I just kind of wanted to kind of raise that, really, in terms of, there's a risk of that, and there are actually remedies to that, which, you know, Wendy, was that part of that remedy for me, you know, creating a space creating mentorship and coaching and having people around you as well. And that's one thing that I've learnt, as I've gone on, really, is that that's important people.
Wendy Kendall 31:42
Yeah, yeah, you know, that really, that's such a super point to remind us all because I remember when I left my job and came into private practice, I'd had five psychologists working for me to admin staff, and I felt, you know, I felt there was a certain identity of, of kind of leading and managing a team like that, and then going to having nobody working with you. As you said, Tina, I was, I didn't even realise that you were far ahead of the game on me, I was like, No, it'd be absolutely fine. It'll all be, you know, stress free, because I'll only have myself to sort out. I have not recognised how much I needed and wanted and enjoyed and loved having people around me to work with me. And not, you know, working with clients is awesome work, you know, going and getting on aeroplanes and going, seeing people is fabulous. But actually the day to day having a coffee in the kitchen with someone or walking to wherever to get your lunch and sitting down over lunch with people. And I think that was that's been part of the thing that people really missed in the pandemic as well, right, all those kinds of social relationships got disrupted. And now also looking at hybrid and remote models of working, I know that I was doing a piece of work with a big European organisation around their remote and hybrid work models. And they were describing how, you know, the deep work was being done at home, when they came into the office, they were all trying to get meetings in with one another to work on work topics. And the thing that got left out of these hybrid and remote models was the little bits of socialising the little bits of relationship building that were not at all work related. So like, all the kind of we need to be together to work on this topic and do the collaborating stuff was being jammed into that one or two days of working in the office together. And everyone had kind of forgotten about the social, you know, let's go and get half an hour or an hour at lunchtime, or let's just you know, do this or we'll pass one another in the, in the corridors and just spend 10 or 15 minutes because we've got a little bit of time, no one had time for that anymore. And it was really being kind of left out and lost. And yeah, so just throw that one in the mix for anyone to kind of respond to I don't know if you I don't know if you've kind of also experienced that or or come across any of those similar themes.
Dr Hannah Bryan 34:33
It feels like the connection is what is at the heart of a lot of things and that's what we've missed out on and that can be a fear of entrepreneurs and people working in private practice not feel connected, but I think you know, that's a wonderful thing when did that you've created for a way for us all to connect and you know, was as we started this call earlier, we say no, no tests and yourself Wednesday. I've watched a lot with them. I don't I haven't actually work for Tina. But because of the way that you've created the work, I almost feel connected to you through discussions that we've had online and whatnot. So yeah, it is that way of connecting with people that are doing similar things to yourself and might come up against similar challenges. And
Dr Tess Browne 35:21
I think one of the advantages in the sort of entrepreneur space is that, because absolutely agree, I think connection is huge. And for me, it's one of the pillars of my mental health. So it has to therefore be part of the foundations of my business and how I run it, if my mental health is going to is going to be good. One, yes, you do have to be, I think, more proactive and intentional about putting the effort into building those relationships, and then maintaining those relationships in a way that you wouldn't necessarily if you were sharing an office with somebody, or you would bump into them, you know, when you're making a coffee together in the pantry at work. But I think one of the advantages is that you can choose your tribe, you can choose which of those Yeah, that's true hold on to so much work. Stress comes from toxic relationships in the occupational environment. And you can't walk away from those relationships when you're within a system working with people whereas on the main part, if you're, you know, an entrepreneur, you can choose to build a really healthy connections and relationships with people that builds you up that make you thrive but cheerlead you, and you can choose to distance yourself or remove yourself from the relationships which have the opposite effect. And, and I, I think that working for myself has given me the opportunity to build connections with people and in ways that I wouldn't have done otherwise. Like through social media, for example, I have fantastic connections with people I've never ever met in real life. Actually, you guys hear me like I know, especially Wendy and Hannah, I know you really well, but we've never actually met in real life. But I've got, you know, friends in Canada and America, people that I've collaborated with, but we've never actually met, but just the different strokes, you know, the different avenues and where you can connect and the different ways that you can connect can be really diverse. And that just speaks to me and speaks to my heart in terms of how I like to connect on a personal level. And I don't think I would have been able to do that in a way that I have if I was working within a within a system.
Wendy Kendall 37:31
Yeah, you know, right. I'm throwing a bit of a curveball in here, folks, because this is making me think about so I know that one of the models that kind of really guides my the way in which I think about supporting psychologists in private practice is the PERMA-V model. So Seligman and PERMA stands for let me get this right, positive emotions, engagement, positive relationships, talking about here, meaning achievement, and the V got added on the end because it stands for vitality. And, you know, I think a lot about those principles when I'm thinking about how I work with people. But the discussion, you know, coming back to this point about, if we build businesses that are good for mental health, then that's great. But I'm wondering how that has also influenced the ways in which you've gone about supporting your clients. So Hanna, for example, I know that this was something that was making you think about the application of EMDR. And to coaching, for example, and you know, helping people with performance blocks in particular. So, so that's an example. And I'd love to hear more about it. And I'm just wondering about that for you, Tina, and for you, Tess also about how has this journey of supporting your mental health in your private practice, then influenced how you work with clients? So I'll leave Tina and tests with the exam question for a moment. And I'm going to come to you, because I know that we've had discussions about this shaping of EMDR for coaching, especially for business owners. Yeah, a bit about that kind of what the origin story of that piece of work for you, Hannah. Yeah, it's,
Dr Hannah Bryan 39:43
it's interesting when I look back on it now, because it never felt like that at the time. But when I you know, when I was on this journey, even though I was like, two, two and a half years into it when I kind of thought, oh, that's what I'm talking about, you know, performance anxiety, mental health as business owners trying to get the best out of that person. You know, initially, this was me. And I think that's, that's what I see as being the whole of what I'm kind of doing now, with my business is creating something for somebody who is a younger version of me how I was like, you know, when I come out of the NHS feeling burnt out and really wanted to prioritise myself and I was thinking, you know, oh, you know, really interested in EMDR. And, and training to be a facilitator and then maybe delivering my own trainings. But how can I do that, you know, I'm scared to death about standing up in front of people. So you know, what I put in the work for that I just started to work on my mindset, work around mental health, work, my beliefs, and do all these things. So it feels like I've been the test case where you have to say what I need to change it to get me where I want it to be. So yeah, I find that just so fascinating. And when I look back, it feels like a linear journey. And it was so obvious from day dot that this was where I was going to end up. But it's noisy, you know, it's all over the place. And it was nothing like that. I'm glad I've journaled through all these years, because, yes, I can see, you know, a snippet of an idea was planted then. And then three months later, it grew into something else. Yeah. So for me, it's just been, you know, no matter how slow we move in, as long as we still move in, as long as we still prioritising ourselves, our mental health, what we love to do, because I felt that I come from an environment where I'd forgotten what this was, you know, I was conditioned just as rules and do what other people expected of me. So it feels like I've had to, you know, try and get through all of that conditioning, shut off by like, normal way of thinking, and just try and go a bit deeper and feel what's deeper inside, what's more true to me what I am capable of, and I always say, I cannot believe the growth. And we talked about growth earlier in, in the title here, I cannot believe the growth that I've seen in myself, from invested in myself invested in my mental health and doing what I love, right? Yeah, rather than trying to tick a box and do what somebody else is telling me to do. And then, because I'm there, the knock on effect that that's hard with all of the people, you know, that I've worked with over the years, whether it's coaches, therapist, therapy clients, or you know, tests, when we've gone through accreditation with EMDR, I just feel that I'm really enthusiastic and passionate about what I do, and that that ripple effect, has a knock on effect on everybody that I work with.
Wendy Kendall 43:05
So this is cool. I feel like we're building a manifesto for why mental health is so important to entrepreneurs, because actually, how about the possibility that maybe, just maybe we build better products and services when we actually prioritise the mental health of people leading small, innovative businesses?
Dr Hannah Bryan 43:28
It just sounds so obvious, doesn't it? And I'm like, because I get so excited about all the stuff that I do and what I create, because I just love it. And I never felt like that before. Before. I used to put all this stuff at the centre of everything that I did. I never felt that way about what all was producing and delivering.
Wendy Kendall 43:49
Yeah, yeah. So I'm coming over to Tess and Tina now in tech, in case of any kind of resonance, where you've seen that kind of, you know, the prioritisation of your mental health has then led to that more positive kind of cycle of innovation in your own services. Tina, how about
Dr Tess Browne 44:10
you? Yeah,
Dr Tina Mistry 44:11
yeah, so mine is I resonate so much with what Hannah has been saying and so many threads that I wanted to pull on. So the first bit for me was vulnerability. And being self aware, those two pieces are so powerful, especially within like our field that there's this there's a stigma right for us to not share how we genuinely feel that I honestly feel and I think that that's something that I'm stripping back and you know, kind of saying, You know what I like Hannah said we're human first before anything else. And the more that we share our stories share our truths. The more then we inspire others to then do the same for themselves and the other piece around vulnerability and you know, stripping back What is it meant to be to be a psychologist is that critical thinking like we're taught to be critic coping is in terms of the research that we, you know, read in the papers and books and everything. But actually, you know, one of my biggest journeys has been around being critical around the field of psychology as a whole, and the way that, you know, mental health is constructed. And again, just me putting those ideas out reflecting on kind of where there's my role, then applying this, it's inspired other people who I've worked with Coach, you know, to really reflect on that piece of okay, what am I what am I continuing? Or what what am I kind of, you know, facilitating, or where am I in this whole thing, and then giving people the permission to almost stop and think about where do they want to go with this next, because again, there is this lack of what feels like autonomy, that we can be masters of our own, you know, careers and professions, we, we almost are somewhat, I guess, guided or kind of, you know, we have this belief that we just follow, and you know, the employers or the corporates or whoever we're working for, they tell us how it's supposed to be done. And then my second bit was really just about kind of, in the world of psychology and mental health, there always seems to be that. Let's go to the past, let's deal with the traumas, let's deal with all the difficult stuff. And especially within sort of my culture, my community, there's never really been about this coaching positive energy, let's flip the script. Let's see what, you know, what we as human beings, as a community have, have harnessed and can provide and can continue to grow and provide you know, that I feel like that, that that that conversation, especially within the brand therapists network has been really influential, because it's about kind of saying to people, yes, you can not, no, you can't. And I think that that has been really powerful, I think for sure.
Wendy Kendall 46:53
Yeah, yeah. And a topic that is coming up time and time again, is about this power of reflection, as well. And how that actually can start to promote a sense of autonomy, meaning we start to question the paradigms that we're moving within, and then I may I say, really clearly, then with the potential for innovation, when we're not just following the way things have always been done. And so it really seems like there's a very clear link there between supporting our mental health and actually being more innovative and being more growth, having more growth potential as small businesses as well. And coming to you test, I want to hear your perspective on this as well.
Dr Tess Browne 47:43
Well, I've been sort of tapping into a couple of areas that both Hannah and Tina mentioned there, I guess, for me, I feel like my mental health journey or evolution, or whatever you want to call it has increasingly been built around kind of my values and things that are most important to me, I definitely think I personally begin to recognise and prioritise those things much more in the last sort of five years or so than probably earlier in my life. And therefore, I have built a business which honours those. And that's so intrinsic in the work that I do with my clients. And actually, I guess I haven't made this kind of clear, link before, but so much of the work that I will do my clients is around their values, and it's about what's important to them. And it's about supporting them to design a life, which honours their values. And it's kind of shaped around their values, as opposed to the patterns that they've sort of fallen into. And on reflection with you so much of that in my own journey. And that, you know, the pathway towards clinical psychology and being a clinical psychologist was so sort of written out for you, you have to jump through this hoop and this soup, this hoop and then you go into this certain job and, you know, your work through these bands, it's all mapped out that it doesn't really give you the opportunity to pause and think well hang on, is this is this mapping? Is this consistent with actually what's really important to me? And I guess for me, no, although it was really, I feel like I almost got forced into entrepreneurship because of the life decisions I made around moving abroad and also with my partner's work, but I'm so grateful that I kind of was forced to rethink that now because it has given me the opportunity to Yeah, I designed my work and my mental health, in alignment with each other. And now having moved back to the UK quite recently, and having the opportunity to step back into the system that I left when I left the country made a very conscious decision to say, Well, no, I don't want that actually, this is too good. This life I've created it's certainly not perfect, but you know, it's working well enough that I want to sort of stay in it. And so yeah, I think a lot of that sort of have personal self reflection and journey, it shows up in the work I do with my clients. often unconsciously, but it definitely does. It definitely does. And it's probably because I believe in it, and I believe yes, it can really be impactful.
Wendy Kendall 50:13
Yeah, yeah. And in that sense, there's a real kind of link with the kind of authentic leadership then. So you know, you're in that, in that way, you're offering possibilities to people and talking about visions of the future, that are not just talk, you've lived them yourself, and you've lived through them yourself. And so there's, that brings a certain amount of authentic power to how we show up in a in a leadership space as well. Perfect. Now, I'm mindful of time, even though I love getting into this topic with you. So what I'd like to ask each of you about is what are your hopes for the future of mental health and entrepreneurship? I'm gonna start with tests first, if that's alright, and go the other way around to Tina, and then Hannah.
Dr Tess Browne 51:04
I guess I just hope that it is higher up the agenda, I think, I think as stigma breaks down, as more and more people are talking more openly, more humanly about the reflect on their own mental health experiences, it does become more highlighted and more sort of, on the agenda, but I still certainly through the clients that I work with, it's not the case, everywhere. And so I love that we're having this conversation today. Because I think all of us are coming at it from a place where we're really keen to, you know, make this more of the conversation and people who are kind of running their own businesses and supporting them in doing it that way. And I guess, I would love to see that just be a more natural thing that, you know, when people are thinking about their businesses, it's just intrinsic, that we're also thinking about how can I shape this around my mental health, physical health, rather than just thinking about I don't know, what's going to make me the most money. It's also about what's going on? Whether true wealth lies. Yeah, I'd like to see more of that.
Wendy Kendall 52:14
Tina, hopes for the future. Yeah, I
Dr Tina Mistry 52:17
mean, exactly what test says it needs to be on top of the agenda, it from, from education, to you know, even within our doctorate in clinical psychology, we need that, as part of, you know, we had one lecture on it self care. How does that mean? So, I think that, you know, it. And I think that there's got to be more conversation, honest, real conversation, vulnerable conversations about these, you know, topics because it looks very different for people. And it's about that accepting that there's nuance, as well. And there's intersections, and we have to explore every element of that. It's not an easy topic to confront. I think that when people hear the word mental health, I think they have all these images of what it looks like, because of media and how they portray it. But actually, we just need to start from here and continue, you know, kind of flying that flag for everybody. And it's a conversation for everybody. It's not just for us, as psychologists.
Wendy Kendall 53:22
Perfect. Thank you, Hannah. Your hopes for the future?
Dr Hannah Bryan 53:26
Yeah, it's it really links with a webinar that I delivered recently, and I think I chose the title is something like, unlock your potential, you know why it's important to look at your mental health as a business owner, because I really do think that everybody sees it as separate and people don't see the connection with actually, when we look after our mental health, you know, this magic stuff might well happen. So I think for me, it's people getting the connection and invest in more in themselves around the area, and also see you neat, and then we'll keep talking about a journey, which is, you know, but I see it that way, that it's never ending almost, I think we always used to see mental health as either you're well or not. Well, it was kind of, you know, that simple. Whereas I think, you know, this is a constant journey, and I'm never stopped being on this journey. So yeah, those are the two main things that I'm hoping for, as we move forward, and keep on talking about these things, because it's still not talked about in a lot of a lot of places to see.
Wendy Kendall 54:33
Ya know, and, you know, I think the thing that I've really, that's really occurred to me, I don't know if it should have occurred to me beforehand, but it certainly has as a consequence of this conversation, which is, you know, on that first day of people's MBA, or you know, the first day when you walk in on a business course about how to set up your own small business even you know, setting up a business So that aligns with your mental health should be the first, the first day. It's not on aligned with making money. Ultimately, it's not on aligned with creating products and services that help other people and make other people's lives better. And by the way, it's likely to build sustainability right into the heart of your of your business. So come on, let's get that on the first day of these business courses for goodness thing. On that note, you've made me realise there's an occupational psychologist, which is all about mental health at work. We also didn't get lectures on how to look after your mental health and just Oh, my goodness, we're making as you said, we're making it all about other people. Okay, last bit. Thank you. Where can we find you? So, Tina, where do we find you? Sure. So
Dr Tina Mistry 55:54
I hang out on LinkedIn. Now, that's my best, most best place that I am. But I'm also on Instagram, and also on the Brown Therapist Network as well on Instagram as well.
Wendy Kendall 56:03
Awesome. Thank you for that. Hannah. Where do we find you?
Dr Hannah Bryan 56:07
I probably quite active on Instagram at the moment. I'm the EMDR psychologist and coach on Instagram. And I also spend a bit of time on LinkedIn, Dr Hannah Bryan on LinkedIn.
Wendy Kendall 56:20
Perfect. Thank you. And last but not least test where do we find you online.
Dr Tess Browne 56:26
I'm also quite active on Instagram at Dr. Tess Browne. And then my website Dr. Tess Browne.com is a is a good place to go to sort of find out about me and the work I do as well.
Wendy Kendall 56:39
Perfect. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. I hope all of our listeners and the folks watching us if you're catching us live in the video podcast are enjoyed our conversations looking forward to getting into the comments. And yeah, don't forget, if you enjoyed this conversation, then please share it with any of your friends loved ones or colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well. See all of you next week. Both my guests I'll probably see you before then. But also catch you all for the podcast next week. Take care everybody and see you thanks for being here.
