Wendy Kendall
Hello and welcome to another enlightening episode of Inspiring Psychologists Breaking the Mould of Private Practice. I'm your host Wendy Kendall, psychologist and private practice coach. Today we're tackling a topic that I know raises a lot of questions for psychologists and therapists in private practice, transitioning between therapy and coaching, building a successful practice. Whether you're a seasoned professional looking to diversify your services, or you're new to private practice, and exploring different avenues. This episode promises to be a trove of valuable insights. We'll be discussing the similarities, differences and interplay between therapy and coaching, and how to navigate these domains in a way that builds a successful and rewarding practice. To delve deep into this subject, I'm thrilled to welcome two guests who have navigated this transition and have built thriving practices that incorporate and combine both therapy and coaching. Our first guest is Michaela Thomas, a clinical psychologist, author and director of the Thomas connection. Michaela integrates therapy and coaching in her work with senior women leaders helping them to burn bright without burning out. Joining her is Paula Gardner, a business psychologist and human Givens therapist. Carla blends therapy and coaching in her practice with a special focus on supporting the mental health and performance of entrepreneurs. Both Michaela and Paula generously share their unique experiences, discuss the challenges they faced in bringing both of these elements into their practice, and provide practical strategies that have been successful for them. Now, without further ado, let's dive into the world of transitioning between therapy and coaching, and how we can leverage both in service of a thriving private practice. And don't forget, if you're interested in exchanging ideas on how to grow your private practice, join us in the inspiring psychology practices Facebook group, connect with us on LinkedIn, or visit our website at inspiring psych.com. That's inspiring, p s ych.com. Hello, and welcome to episode six of the Inspiring Psychologist Breaking the Mould of Private Practice podcast. And in this episode, we're going to be discussing the transition between therapy and coaching and the experiences of two successful practitioners who've navigated along the lines of those different areas of our practice. And so I'm really looking forward to hosting this conversation today. I'm also going to take part in it as somebody who's had some experience navigating this way of operating private practice as well. So I know that the people that we're speaking to today, Paula Gardner from the good therapy practice, and also Michaela Thomas from the Thomas Connection, have navigated this transition between coaching and therapy in different ways their paths have been different. And also my own path of integrating what I learned in when I trained in internal family systems therapy into my coaching practice is a different way of operating again. So I really hope that you enjoy this discussion. And it really if the, you know, if there's one topic that I think will generate a lot of discussion in our profession, it's something like this, it's this one around, you know, what are the differences? What does it look like to move from therapy to coaching and back again, how do we integrate those into our practice? So I'd really love to see your comments in the in the in the comment section as well and to get into it with you there too. So, without further ado, I'd love to welcome both Paula Gardner and Michaela Thomas to the podcast. Hello, both of you. Hi. Hi there. Hi Michaela. Hi Paula Ah, lovely to see you. Okay, so I, I gave a little bit of a spiel to start with there. And the I can hear a little bit of noise on the background. So I don't know if any of you can hear that, too. No, no. Okay, let's carry on. So I gave a little bit of a spiel there about this topic of transitioning between coaching and therapy. And both of you have experienced that. So could I ask you to just give a little bit of an introduction to yourselves to start with. So maybe start with Michaela and then over to Paula, please.
Michaela Thomas
So I'm Michaela Thomas. I am a qualified clinical psychologist and coach and therapist and author and speaker and very much multi hyphenated. I am the founder of the private practice the Thomas Connection. And I am an author of the books and lasting connection. And I focus on both therapy for individuals and couples and coaching. So I specialise in group coaching for highly ambitious women on the brink of burnout. And so, I love this discussion of thinking about what therapy what's coaching, because I also do corporate speaking and thinking about coaching in that space as well. So I'm really grateful to be invited today.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, thank you for that. Okay, Paula, over to you.
Paula Gardner
Hi, Wendy. So, yeah, you're totally right, I've made the transition. And actually, you know, you know, balanced the two, but my previous background was actually business. So PR and marketing. And I ran my own PR and marketing company, which is how we can take years ago, like 10 years ago.
And then I sort of moved into coaching business owners through doing their own PR and marketing. So bringing more coaching in and what I was finding was that there are a percentage of business owners who were taking on my, you know, suggestions and, and doing great, but they were a significant that that weren't or just weren't doing anything. So as time went on, that really piqued my interest in learning more about coaching, so I did qualified as a coach. And then of course, you know, once you start down this track but yeah, so again, that piqued my interest, even
Wendy Kendall
ecology got ahold of you.
Paula Gardner
Yeah, so I ended up qualifying as a business psychologist, and then and then qualifying as a counsellor and psychotherapist, so I bring elements of all even, you know, the old business stuff creeps in there. So,
Wendy Kendall
yeah, yeah, exactly. So Michaela , just coming back to you, can you describe a little bit also your journey in terms of therapy coaching, the development of your private practice, and so on?
Michaela Thomas
Yeah, sure, I guess, what has been a really sort of important mantra to me, and the work that I do has been about how I create more impact for others, with less impact on myself. And that balancing of the compassion I give to others, as a practitioner, whilst also letting self-compassion come in. And that's been really important because of the experiences I've had of working as a therapist and psychologists in the NHS in very busy in London kind of practices where the targets were sky high, and I experienced an episode of burnout. So there, it was really important for me to think about what were the ingredients for that? What were the makings of that experience of burnout, and how I then developed private practice sort of small scale to begin with, and grew and grew and grew until that was what I do fully. And that's what you know, my brand has been over eight years now. So it was really important to practice what I preach. That's how I teach others as well. And this is where I navigate the difference between therapy and coaching. Because some people may not need an intervention, they may not need healing and support and coming out of a clinical state like mental health problems like depression or anxiety, or stress and burnout, they may want to put systems in place for prevention to make sure that they don't go down that place to develop a compassionate mind that there are unkind kinder than themselves and more able to be successful, be ambitious, be is driving without the risk of the burnout as a result. So that's why it was really important for me personally, because I've been in that experience, and letting go of doing things perfect. Have a letting go pleasing everyone and starting to please myself a bit more and bringing myself into the mix was really important then in moving away from from a NHS service and then fully working for myself because I can dictate how I work each day and how my work week looks and what my targets are what I do month to month. So I sort of tried to talk to talk and walk the walk, if you may. And I think that's why it's been inspirational to work with me in kind of smaller, intimate group containers of coaching because people don't get to ask how do you do this? How do you juggle motherhood with a successful practice? How do you manage to write a book when you've got a young child? And it's the clue is in exactly that I live a life that is not at the brink of burnout, because it wouldn't be sustainable. So Success for me is figuring out what clients do I have therapy to because they need that healing. Maybe there's been traumatic experiences, maybe there is an ongoing active episode of depression that needs treatment, versus who can have coaching to kind of build a life that is more sustainable, so that they don't actually get to the point that developing that child's problems. All of that has been kind of cloaked in my own experience.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, sure. And so for both of you, and just to understand how you kind of structure your practices, I guess, Michaela , I think in your introduction, you mentioned that you offer therapy for both individual and couples. And I remember you and I have had in depth discussions about that. Over the years, and then offering coaching, small group coaching, to high striving women on the verge of burnout. And you know, I've seen a lot of the kind of material that you've produced around that as well, because you talk a lot about that on social media, too. And so I'm with Paula, you're saying about being a business psychologist, but also then training and qualifying in psychotherapy. So for each of you do, do those areas of your practice, tend to blend? Or do you try to keep them quite separate? So I'll come over to you, Paula.
Paula Gardner
Okay. Um, I think there's two levels here. One is the sort of marketing and outside world level, and the other is what's happening in the room. So the marketing point of view, I do keep them separate. So from coat for coaching, I tend to work with business owners, usually around visibility, given my PR and marketing background. And, of course, you know, there's a lot of psychological stuff around visibility, people being nervous about stepping up, people having bad experiences, people just, you know, having to find time and, you know, looking at, you know, schedules and their approach to work, and so on. And then the Good Therapy Practice is generally, you know, therapeutic, it's about helping business owners cope and deal with, you know, either distressing business situations or live situations that every business will owner will go through. But of course, there's an element of coaching that creeps into that as well. And business owners in particular, I think, respond really well to coaching. Because that's what we hear a lot of, you know, a lot of the time on social media, on workshops, and so on, it is often a very coaching mindset that you can connect with, and then do the deeper work underneath that. Exactly. Yeah,
Wendy Kendall
I love to hear that integration. And I think your point around the difference in how that is marketed is a really interesting, I've got this whole thing about how marketing is actually part of the initial conversation with our clients. And so, you know, when we're reaching people at different stages in a change process and coming along different paths, and it makes sense that we would be having different conversations, according to different areas of our practice. So Michaela , coming thanks for sharing that. Paul. It's really interesting. Makayla coming over to you how do you hold a manage and contain these different areas of practice? Well, you
Michaela Thomas
can think of it very, kind of as completely separate things almost like I would move someone from a therapy contract to do a coaching contract, for instance, because there are different agreements between me as a petitioner and then as the the client, maintaining the service. So that's something that's been successful times sometimes when someone has approached me and wanted to be part of the right, that my group coaching and I just didn't feel that they were quite in a stable enough place yet. And it might be that they'd have had an episode of some therapy sessions, looking at it or managing symptoms and feeling more sort of stable in themselves to be a able to go into a kind of a deeper transformation be able to be safe enough to be in a group with others. And when I say safe, I mean, so that would wobble them, you know, feel safe and not be unsafe towards others. But to feel safe and stable enough to think about a lot of these things. Sometimes if people come to me, and they're actually in an episode of burnout, it may be that they need to be stabilised first. And then we can then use coaching as a way to kind of understand what made the trip up in the first place, and what systems and practices do need to put in place to prevent another episode of that. So there's different points in the journey where other think therapy versus coaching. So that's it, that's when there can be very separately. And this is also based on me doing a fuller assessment on anyone who comes my way to think about what's going on for them. So part of that is guided by clinical severity. Part of this, it's also guided by being a little bit more, I don't know, thinking outside the box, there are two practices I've come across which one is therapeutic coaching, which I think is a really fascinating,
Wendy Kendall
so that again, therapeutic therapy coaching, therapeutic coaching, right? Okay, I've heard of that to
Michaela Thomas
tell them playing around with that. So playing around with that, because I've heard and this is might be the, I am sort of at odds with other practitioners, which is fine, it's fine to not always agree and be in an echo chamber. But I personally think that coaching can be very transformational and deep as well, even though I don't go into certain background experiences and not intending to trigger. But therapeutic coaching, I think is a really good term for when someone who's qualified to hold that space can provide that, whereas some who may just not I mean, just in a derogatory way, but to be a life coach means that there are certain things you are not able to do. And for me, as a qualified psychologist, I can hold the space in a therapeutic way as well. So therapeutic coaching is one term I've come across that I've been kind of thinking about expanding my practice into as well. Second one is business therapy, which is obviously similar to Paula thinking about working with business owners. Often we are already more interested in self development, things that can pro grow our practices, things that are going to help our business grow. But there's not necessarily that you need any personal therapy, but you might need to have some therapy around, say maybe you're procrastinating big projects, or maybe you are a second guessing. And now we're getting a bit caught up in impostor syndrome. And it may not be that you properly need therapy. So this is not my term. But I came across a psychologist called Joe Carlyle, who does this is therapy, and it's again, so therapeutic coaching and business therapy, it's almost like the two different blends. And I think it's we're ready to have these discussions of how we consider these integrations, ethically, with integrity, and considering what works for whom, and who is equipped to provide these practices.
Wendy Kendall
I think those are great questions and great points. And at this point, I just want to also share some of my own experiences on this path. So obviously, I've been an occupational psychologist now for 27 years. And I still can't believe I'm saying that I was chartered in 2000s have been 23 years chartered. And, and then in 2018, I ended up starting this path to become qualified in internal family systems therapy. And that was partly because of personal interest. And partly because I was really interested in the application of that model to my coaching practice. So I've had a corporate practice and I have offered executive coaching for oh, gosh, well, corporate practice has been 20 years and executive coaching probably the last 13 years or so. And there's definitely situations where I know that, you know, there might be topics. Prior to doing my ifs training, there may have been topics that came up in coaching, where a single question could you could really feel the shutdown from someone so it's really touching a specific sore spot. And as an executive coach holding that space, it felt to me as though there was not really a lot of places to go with it at that point. It was definitely not a point where I was just going to dig. And it was definitely you know, somewhere where it wasn't easy for someone to to explore that, that topic. And so internal family systems there isn't there isn't an option for training in depth in the model and not doing the therapeutic element of it. So you know, I did all three levels. I've done lots of other coaching and super vision around it, and started to integrate some of that model into my executive coaching practice. And I called it working with your inner leadership team. And just as a framework that provides an opening for what these are different kinds of containers you mentioned, Michaela , and IFS is also non pathologizing. So we talk about, we talk about the different parts of people having burdens or holding burdens, such as difficult experiences or emotions around things. And so that way of talking about the experiences people have had has been just a more flexible and open way to having conversations that go beyond the purely behavioural, for example, and can hold space for some elements that can be otherwise quite difficult. Now, I don't offer a therapy practice. And I don't know if I would call it business therapy or therapeutic coaching. But it's definitely a format of coaching whereby we can we can work with a wider array of experiences that have people have had that have led to them developing blocks in how they're able to show up. So that's my experience of it, which sounds it sounds like, Well, coming back to it, I really agree with what you said, Michaela about, we need to have conversations around the integration that happens with therapy and coaching, and what that looks like and how to practice safely, ethically, with integrity, and so on. So coming over to you, Paula, because I just want to open up that whole discussion. And there's the, this whole thing seems to be one of the areas where there have been so many kind of polarised discussion points, is it coaching? Is it therapy? Should they be two different things? Is it wrong to integrate them? What does that look like? So, I'm coming over to polar for some reactions and comments on that. Okay.
Paula Gardner
So, the actual therapy that I have trained in is called the human Givens. Yeah, and I suppose you could say that it was not a coaching type of therapy, but it is more akin to, to coaching and sort of deep psychoanalysis in very much it is, you know, about looking forwards in, you know, first therapy session, the client sets their own goal, whether that be you know, it's not about I want to feel better, I want to feel better to be able to do this. So there's something tangible to work for, you know, that we've got evidence that they are achieving their goal. And I was particularly drawn to the human Givens because of this, I, I, myself were quite, you know, goal focused solution focused, you know, the business world, that that fits very well with the business world. So probably, that thing has shaped the type of therapy that that I've chosen to do. And it's not to say we don't, you know, look back at the past, and we do if it's appropriate, and it's necessary, but it's not about sort of raking things up from the past for the sake of it, right?
Wendy Kendall
No, exactly. Yeah. But then, I don't know if you could maybe share any of the background of human Givens it sounds to me like there's an unknown Makayla, for example, you use CF T, I think my compassion focus therapy, we know about solution, solution focused therapy. So it sounds to me as though that anyway, there are some of these approaches to psychotherapeutic or psychological relationships. I don't know how to describe that. But nevertheless, it could be integrated in either a therapeutic context or in a coaching context.
Paula Gardner
Yeah, yeah. So the human Givens therapy, a lot of it is, is about our needs, both as a right or as a business owner, as just a human being. So we have fundamental needs things like sense of security, sense of controls and connection, community privacy, status, achievement, and, you know, looking at your life, what, what is, you know, fulfilling those needs? And are they getting me fulfilled in balance? So, you know, different people will need different amounts, and if you have too little or too much, so for instance, you know, work for instance, too much work. workaholism, not enough work life balance. The way they look at poverty is in the context of business. And what that means the trap business owners fall into is I get a lot of needs met through the business, like status, achievement connection, community, rather, being a very small life, but a very intense and a lot of pressure put on that business. Basically, the human Givens is all about if those needs aren't being met in balance, then enter the right amount for you, then that's where things can start to go awry. So it's very much looking about your life, and where you're getting those needs met right now. And, and also putting in steps. You know, what you need to do to get those needs met? I think that for me, this is where the coaching bit comes in. Yeah,
Wendy Kendall
I was gonna say, I mean, this just lends itself immediate. And I don't know, if Michaela , you're nodding your head vigorously as well, whether you have any comments, but this just speaks immediately to me as an Organisational Psychologist, right? I hear echoes of, you know, the good old PERMA V model. And, and also, some of these somehow, some threads that linked to this whole question of, Oh, do we have work life balance? The whole element of it the integration of different domains of life, right. So yeah, Michaela , you were nodding your head vigorously when you were listening to them, just.
Michaela Thomas
Yeah, I was because even though we come from different therapeutic modalities, that is often a lot more crossover between modalities than there are differences because they are trying to capture universal human experiences. So they kind of have to be right. So I have a lot of crossover between compassion, focus therapy, and ifs. So what we were talking about, or Wendy relates to that as well. And CFT is also non pathological model that can be used to also treat pathology. So that's how it splits into compassion Focused Therapy versus compassionate mind training, because we all might train your mind to be more compassionate. And this is how it sits really well in the non clinical population. Like, I can coach anyone to develop a more compassionate mind with themselves and with others, there is no side effects or harm from doing that. Obviously, if we then think about stepping into territories where there is blocks, fears, or resistances, around being compassionate to yourself or others that may well have come from experiences of trauma, for instance, and then we can think about treating that with compassion, focus therapy, which is, you know, evidence based around depression, anxiety, trauma, I love these difficult experiences as well. But I am trained in CBT, first and CBT, cognitive behavioural therapy as well as Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And this is why I'm nodding along with colour because actor Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, it lends itself really well to a corporate organisational setting as well, I am trained and act in the workplace, because we can think about these different domains. How do we integrate domains? How do we live a life that is worth living? How do we live a life that matters to us and that's again, having your needs met. And often in the human experience, difficult thoughts, feelings show up and pull us away from acting effectively acting like the human we want to be making, you know, making it harder for us to make the choices of acting along with our values. So this is where I think about work combined safety or compassion focused therapy or compassionate mind training with act because I feel that they both together capture the human experience in a non pathological we are the same kind of way. And I think that is the movement that I see today and in psychology practices, but it's no longer about the blank slate, the tabula rasa, it's kind of moving away, people come to me and want to know that I am like you I suffer too. And that's the whole point. Yeah, that's
Wendy Kendall
a really important point, I do
Michaela Thomas
suffer. We are not blank slates, I am not on a high horse, I am not immune to difficulties and I haven't figured all of this stuff out. I'm just a few steps ahead of someone I likely like the sort of the guiding you up the mountain kind of idea of having the equipment, having the tools have trodden this road before it might tell you where to put your feet by you still need to do the work of climbing up the mountain. That's how I think of both coaching and therapy in a lot of ways.
Wendy Kendall
So I guess one of the things when it comes to private practice and kind of integrating both coaching and therapy elements, Michaela again, earlier you alluded to, and you as well polar both alluded to the fact that, you know, we're creating containers for people that need to be in integrity that need to be resourced properly, that we need to have the, you know, the skills and capabilities to do deliver this kind of approach. I mean, NSA straight out, I feel like when we have these not on this podcast, of course, but when we have these polarised discussions in the media about, oh, is it this? Or is it that and, you know, trying to expand the differences between coaching and therapy? While I'm I think we're on a hiding to nothing because as you said, Michaela , we're actually coming back to what is the human experience here, too, we're kind of going against what we've learned over the years, which is trying to categorise and separate and, you know, maximise the differences between people's home life, professional life, working life, etc, just is such a massive workload for people anyway. So a more integrated person seems like, you know, a more integrated life would be awesome. And yeah, I feel like there's a lot more nuance and a lot more grey areas, and not straight, fixed answers that we need to be able to hold space for safely. So when it comes to that, you know, whether it's you know, there's different elements that kind of come into it for me. One is, what is a workable contract? So I, one of my supervisors for a while, was a guy called Chris Baris, who is a senior trainer with the IFS Institute. And he had this wonderful thing in our supervision sessions where he would say, is it a workable contract, and this idea that we are contracting with people and that every session, that's, that's kind of a Olympic living contract that we're creating. So the people think that, you know, the paperwork is one thing, but the establishment of a workable contract with people is also something that we need to open up. And, and yeah, and just negotiating with people in your sessions and in your, in your relationship with them. About are we in therapy now? Are we, you know, what is a workable contract in this situation? So how do you go about that? I'm going to come over to you Michaela .
Michaela Thomas
How do I go about making sure that the client I'm with hitting the right contract, or whether they were happy to stay in their contract or want to move
Wendy Kendall
all of the above because I think, living kind of experience? Yeah. of moving areas.
Michaela Thomas
I mean, as he was speaking, when the thought came to my mind about one of the very common scheme as we as psychologists, there may be more clinical psychologists than business, I don't know. But it's something I learned a long, long time ago that two of the most common schemas in psychologists are to do with perfectionism and self sacrifice. Right. So we by the definition of that the nature of of our profession is that we really do want to categorise and get this right, is because I'm a PC that the damage that can be done can be immense. So we need to get this quote unquote, right now and read your comments here for those listening without video. And that's why I think a lot of really good psychologists in this profession are holding themselves back from stepping into a space of coaching because they really fear getting it wrong, and what damage could that do. And this is a very important discussion, because it's about ethical practice and safekeeping, that's a big part of my training has been to always make sure that people are safe. So that said, I think that also means that we almost like throw the baby out with the bathwater, and don't explore and experiment, try new practice as they could, again, capture the human experience. And a lot of people who we know do not access psychological therapy, this is why we've had whole initiatives called, you know, improving access to psychological therapies, and it's still the uptake is low compared to the amount of people who need it. And it might be easier for people to kind of Google coaching, right? Or say, I'm gonna have a bit of coaching on the company, is very different to say, I'm gonna go and see a therapist, there's still so much stigma in that. So that said, how do we help people approach these practices and get more support, right, whatever that might be with. So how are we then differentiate between the contracts or when which contract you should be and again, I'm guided by severity and guided by how people are feeling and guided by what I'm hearing. As a psychologist, I'm trained in everything from risk assessments to safeguarding and that means that I'm listening out intently constantly, and what people are saying in the group container, and if I hear something that makes me kind of go, you need more support, you need more safekeeping, I will then take that person to decide to make sure that that's not in this discussion. In front of the group, and see if they need any more support? Do they need to have access to therapy alongside the coaching? Do they need to come out to coaching space entirely? Do they need to pause that journey? And vice versa? Are they coming from therapy before they go into the coaching? So this is where I think assessing, formulating looking at the function of which contract they're going to be in, you know, what will the function be for you, if you access coaching right now, what would the function be? If you access therapy? What would you want to unlock? Where are you wanting to go? Because I, in my experiences, it is absolutely possible for someone who's been through a lot to still access, like another layer of that in coaching and be like, that doesn't mean that that part of you isn't invited along for the journey. But it may not be the focus. And as long as someone feels like I'm able to keep that focus. And that's a separate focus that maybe a traumatic experience is not what I'm bringing to this container. And it's again, something that you have to use your clinical sensitivity to sit with. And this is where coming back to the question of what works for whom and who is equipped to provide you what practice that if you are a life coach who inviting in lots of people which Matic experiences and you're not trained in, say group cohesion group dynamics, safeguarding that to me, it can be dangerous. But if you are someone who understands where your limits go, and who you're calling into your world and what you offer them, then I think that's a very different discussion.
Wendy Kendall
I think your point about understanding limits is one that really resonates with me as well. And I'll come back to it. Just making a little note there. I'm going to come across. Thank you for that. Michaela . Yeah, he brought up a bunch of stuff, and I was writing notes, as you were talking, then we'll come back to them. Paula, what about you? How does? How are you kind of managing when you're working across that intersection between coaching and therapy? And as part, as Michaela said, you know, negotiating and kind of re working the psychological contract, if not the actual paperwork?
Paula Gardner
Yeah. I suppose having two separate brands, sort of start helps, because they are two different containers. And I think within you know, within therapy, we're doing therapy, and I may bring my coaching skills to help make that that session more effective for my client. But it's therapy, you know, the coaching skills are more about when they set their goal, and we're looking at more tasks and a homework, you know, working out what that might be during the week to actually help them make progress. Yeah. And again, when I am coaching business clients around visibility and confidence, you know, like Michaela, if something just feels a bit a mess, and I think they need to do some deeper work, then, you know, that's a separate conversation. Yeah, and it might not be with me, you know, it might be that our relationship stays a coaching relationship. And they do that, that deeper work with someone else, rather than me trying to have a dual relationship with them. But yeah, like you say, Michaela is about knowing your own boundaries. And also, for me, they have a very different flow, that, you know, coaching and therapy and switching from one to another in a session. That doesn't really happen so much. However, just thinking about risks and something might, you know, Michaela said and you said you've jotted it down. You know, I have been on coaching programmes with coaches who are not particularly, you know, clinically qualified, who, you know, are using tactic tactics like shaming people if they don't, you know, basically stay up with everybody else on the programme. I don't know if you guys have seen the BBC documentary on her own second name, but a big coaching organisation that basically use a lot of Yeah, quite nasty tactics to break people down and take them money. I think yeah, there's one thing thinking about qualified people who are working to, you know, set clinical standards who are in supervision, who take it very seriously in various Barnstable. And there's a whole industry out there that doesn't come anywhere close.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly, exactly. I've had these kinds of conversations recently speaking with some of my clients who are obviously psychologists in private practice, and discussing this whole topic of moving from, you know, therapy, coaching, coaching, therapy and so on. And It strikes me the amount of care. And the amount of, as you said, Michaela , you know that which goes to even fear of making a mistake. And for me, it was like widening this conversation up a little bit to say, Okay, now we can have a conversation about what safe and effective professional development looks like. So that you're working within the loop as we are all required to do working within the limits of our competencies, where we have requirements for ongoing CPD, which can be met in a variety of ways we don't all have to go and get a PhD and a Master's every time we want to add something, I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying there's a range of opportunities for CPD where supervision is an ongoing requirement, where insurance is an ongoing requirement, where all of you know keeping the data safe is an ongoing requirement and all of those things. But when we really hold ourselves back and become quite, almost rigid in thinking about transitioning across this, you know, what has been treated as almost like a hard boundary. And kind of zooming out on that, and looking at who else is therefore working with people in those contexts. And is that necessarily always going to be safe? You know, I think we have a role to play in stepping forward into and delivering help where we can, where we can do that effectively. So my point is often look, if you want to go and do the masters, the postgrads certificate, the PhD or whatever, in either a coaching or therapeutic modality, that's entirely up to you. But at the end of the day, when we become registered, qualified, chartered, what that means is we have been deemed to be fit for independent practice. And that means we are deemed to be responsible enough so that we know what CPD route we require to extend our professional skills and competencies. And when we're working with an individual, whether no matter how many skills and competencies we've got, whether that individual is, you know, whether they need something that is beyond what we can provide them, then what do we do about that? And that we also have effective supervision and all the other things, and that's under workable contract. And that's what I call creating a safe container for whatever shows up there. So yeah, Michaela , you're nodding, Polly, you're nodding. I welcome any comments on that?
Michaela Thomas
No, I really great because it's one of those things that again, as someone who specialises in perfectionism, I see those patterns showing up so much, and there's no you know, needing to do it, right. And dotting all the i's, and crossing all the T's. And this is really important. This is why we have governing bodies that protect the general public from malpractice. This is why we have you know, these different various variations of oaths that we take to make sure that we do no harm. So I think you're right, that it's important to acknowledge that there are many ways of furthering your development and learning new skills that doesn't have to be like collecting masters like we have a propensity to in our profession. And we all know the slight hoarding issue around buying books. We all do it. Because when can you stop learning I mean, I always think about the sort of Buddhist concept of having the mind of the Eternal student, I am always learning I'm always growing every single person I work with, that teaches me something new that I don't necessarily always find in a book. And I obviously supervise junior colleagues as well. I provide business supervision as well as coaching for other aspiring psychologists. And it's, it's one of the things I try to say to people is finding your way of practising find your flow, find your secret sauce, whilst you still stay within the ethical boundaries and constraints. There are things that are put in place to protect the general public. But we don't always have to follow them the same way as everyone else, if that makes sense. So you make sure that you've not done harm and you make sure that you're having the client's interests in mind and spotting some of these marketing strategies that are out there probably spamming sponsored content to try to find you and target you and acknowledging that actually, no, I Some of the things I will say no to like FOMO marketing or pain, point marketing, fear based shame based marketing, like, like you touched upon already. And actually understanding that, you know, I'm not going to design my psychology practice and my group coaching the way that necessarily some of these marketing gurus and other coaches tell me to do, because I then know, if I go back to my own boundaries and my own ethical practice, that it wouldn't be safe, right? So for instance, or making sure that you get people to always renew or continue buying from you when their contract has ended, like, why would I want to do that? Right, I would have to look at function. And like, you talked about polo, about the needs being met, if the needs have been met, and they've, you know, this has been a workable contract that now come to its end, it would be unethical for me to try to convince them or persuade them to buy from me again. You know, so this is a big difference, I think of how we then think about this the service we provide, not the selling the service, I think that's really important.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to kind of bring it back to you and your practices. You know, we talked in there about these kind of, you know, these perfectionism drivers, and the whole getting it right thing. And I think, as with so many, you know, we're all human. And so stereotypes pigeonholes, different barriers, mental barriers, we put in our way, can all be part of this process of developing our practices. And so I'm just wondering whether you either have you had any had to kind of work with yourselves when it came to these ideas around expanding what your psychology practice looks like, I'm going to come across to Paul a first. So what was your experience of breaking out of the mould? So,
Paula Gardner
question, good question. So I've got another one that sits alongside perfectionism. And that's impatience. Ya know, want to do everything properly, but also want it done now? Yeah. So, yeah, that's, that's been a real impact. Because when you're working with clients, you have to work at their own pace. So, you know, previously, when I was coaching, I could perhaps had a little bit more control over the pace, if you know what I mean, because as a coach, you know, it is
Wendy Kendall
a bit more in dry. Yeah.
Paula Gardner
But as you know, within, you know, working with therapy clients, it is very client driven. And yes, you can get them back on track, because it's so easy for distractions to come in, you know, you can get back to the work that they came in wanting to do. But I know for me, it has been, you know, my challenge, because I can sort of see where they will eventually get, but they may be all the different stuff off points are all very important. Yeah, it's really, really good and interesting learning journey for me that it's not just about getting from there to there. It's about taking them on a rich experience. So that that has been one of the biggest learnings, but also one of the challenges that I've gone through. Yeah, does that your question? The question?
Wendy Kendall
I always asked really long questions. So I can understand why that might vary. But yeah, I think I'm also thinking about how do we kind of get over ourselves a little bit? So I do think you were answering the question there, which is, you know, you're only patients, the things that come up on our own path as well, that we have to work with ourselves do our own work on in order to in order to ourselves, do our own meandering and find the right path for us, right, you know, that Rhenish richness shows up on our path as well. For you Michaela, thinking about also your background and coming out of NHS and so on, and having, you know, the label of clinical psychologist, which I think in itself is very strong brand throughout that respect. Other Have there been any experiences for you about breaking out of the mould about having to kind of get beyond your own your yourself your own barriers?
Michaela Thomas
So many times I mean, I've gotten around halfway across the world to compassionate retreats and you know, I find a lot of my learning and into myself comes my from my yoga practice that I have as an RA negotiable on my CEO day on Fridays, I go to two hours of yoga. And it's been just attending lots of different spaces where I, you know, Mark times as to reflect, maybe on the yoga mat, maybe at a day retreat, maybe, you know, sitting down to do a vision, boarding, whatever it might be the practices to other people facilitate for me, even though I know all the stuff because I teach it to others, sometimes you need to have someone who holds up the mirror for you and helps you think and reflect on it. And for me, 2023, sort of being the first full year of coming back from my second maternity leave has been a really stretch a year because I want to do lots of different things much like Paul, I have some impatience issues that I'm addressing and noticing and sitting with. But the theme for me this year is thinking about how do I work with embodied leadership? How do I show people how the lifestyle I'm trying to teach people the way of integrating different domains a way of living a valuable life, doing that as a beacon, right? So actually standing tall in myself, and having kind of a compassionate stance towards myself and others. I think of that as a as the kind of almost like, yeah, as a beacon of someone who radiates that energy to others. So that was my word for the year and my business partnership. Certainly, there's carpet, I'm gonna show you a sheet the sort of semi like, Oh, yeah. So that sort of sits on my desk. And actually, that's a reminder for whenever I get hooked by these thoughts and feelings, these things show up as part of our human experience. So you can't do this. Well, what will the profession thing is a classic? Well,
Wendy Kendall
what would I say? What are they going to say about this podcast? Michaela ?
Michaela Thomas
You know, I've been sort of descending down on that for a long time and just noticing them as thoughts or feelings. Because all the people who come to me and say, Oh, I love the work you do tell me how I can have a practice like yours. I'm like, boy, you need to do the work, you need to do the inner work. And that's been everything from money mindset to how do I get myself out there with disability like Paula, teachers? How do you do your own PR? How do you work with content strategies, there's a lot of stuff. As a business owner, I never thought I needed to know when I first trained as a psychologist. So being an entrepreneur is a wild ride. It's a very different stance to when you are employed as a clinical psychologist, where you paid and you get your monthly salary, regardless of what you do, or not, regardless, because you obviously ultimately need to hit your targets, but it's very different. So for me that that kind of breaking that mould and thinking about how I want to design my practice, the things I want to do, the things I want to achieve, is all about, ultimately, the impact I have on other people, how can I reach more people? How can I help disseminate psychology? How can I help other people not fall into the burnout, territory, etc, or letting go of that perfectionism that is stopping so many women who are, you know, absolutely inspirational to me, who are holding themselves back and all it takes sometimes it's a few small tweaks of looking at that inner voice that they have, that's stopping them from putting something out into the world tolerating making some b minus work instead of a plus occasionally and putting that up. So I have to use this constantly for myself. Because you can't be a beacon embodying that leadership to other people, if you don't take some of your own medicine at least some of the time. So yeah, that's been my biggest challenge of how I read this mode, because the same thoughts and feelings show up for me. The not enough nurse, the fear of failure, the fear of success, which is an even bigger one for a lot of people. All of that will show up for me as well. Again, I have a human mind, like all the people I help so yeah, turning compassion practices inwards has been really key for
Wendy Kendall
me. Yeah, cool. I think when I think about integrating ifs into my executive coaching practice, and some of the kind of, you know, when I think about how valuable that journey has been just posing the question around, how can we do this differently? How can we support people within a coaching context when, you know, at one moment, we were working in a surface area in ifs turns, we call it working with protectors and managers. And all of a sudden what's called an exiled part shows up which is usually where something has triggered one of the deepest wounds. And for me, trying to explore and understand that question has really challenged the way that I think about how therapy and coaching work. And there's parts of me that are resenting the labels of therapy and coaching because I feel like they're too restrictive in terms of how we then in a very operational way, use the knowledge and the skills and the capability that we have as psychologists and therapists to actually support people in their everyday lives. So when I come back to this idea of breaking out of the mould, it really feels as though there are, you know, there are some things in our profession that are kind of held up as that are never questioned, we never question that coaching is coaching and therapy is therapy, and whether actually, either of those terms really adequately provide a container for what we need to do to support people. And so, yeah, that's what, for me, that's part of the rationale for having these kinds of conversations. And to really just, yeah, show, showcase what it is, that are just to expose the fact that so many of us are having also these conversations around how do we do this differently, because the way that it's been done does not meet the needs of the world that's out there, and doesn't represent the complexity of the world that's out there. Okay, last question. And thank you so much for staying with me on this, on this rich conversation. Last question is about hopes for the future. So what are your hopes for the future? Paula, when it comes to this transition between therapy and coaching?
Paula Gardner
Thanks, Wendy. Um, yeah, just more of it. I mean, I'm still I'm still on the path. It's, there's, there's not a finite point to it. And the more I go down it, the more I learned, and the more I learned, the more I want to learn more. Yeah, it's that learning and, you know, basically, applying it, applying it, trying it out, seeing what works with clients, on things work really well, some things I've thought, you know, that that's, that's amazing. I'm going to try that out with, you know, people and let them experience. And it hasn't produced what I thought it was. Oh, that has been fascinating. Yeah, and I get a lot, I get a lot of needs met from my work, I find it incredibly Yeah, satisfying. The connection is really important to me. So yeah, just more of it. And I'm very happy with what I'm doing. So yeah, just more of it.
Wendy Kendall
I love it. I can't wait to see more of what you get up to as well. Michaela , over to you, what are your hopes for the future? When it comes to thinking about therapy and coaching?
Michaela Thomas
I guess my hope would be that we can have these conversations in a non judgmental, safe for past space as well. Because my experience of going into these spaces and talking about what is coaching, what is therapy, how do we meet the needs is that unfortunately, our profession can be quite critical. You know, it is this is what happens when we are fear based, is that we are then getting into our threat systems and start to attack each other. And I think that anyone who dares to break the mould is a pioneer or you know, path breaker or Pathfinder, whatever you might call it, it gets a lot of stick then. So I think if we want to think about how do we constantly review and improve and not perfect, but make our services better, and our practices safe and people, we need to have these conversations without anyone who raises their hand and go actually Can I ask this without them being attacked. So I think one of my hopes for the future is that we can talk about these things in a safe way. Right, because in our profession, it doesn't always feel that safe. And I know a lot of people who have left online forums or left supervision settings because it hasn't felt safe that they felt attacked if they didn't, if they again or if we're coming out of the echo chamber. So I think that's really, really important to hold in mind that my wish for everyone is to think about how do I want to have a private practice that suits me seems to clients who I attract and also adheres to ethical boundaries, that would be my hope that people dare to play a little bit more or less as part of my purpose in play practices. So to dare to play and be creative, inspired. And because that's, you know, infectious to our clients, they like to see us breaking the mould.
Wendy Kendall
Awesome. Thank you for that. So, Michaela , while we're there with you, where can we find you online please.
Michaela Thomas
So you can find me on Thomas Connection .co.uk which is my, my private practice, and you can also find me under the Thomas connection on social media. So Instagram, I'm on LinkedIn as well as Michaela Thomas. And you can find me on my podcast pause, purpose play with Michaela Thomas, and also my book, The lasting connection.
Wendy Kendall
Awesome. So we'll make sure we get all those in our show notes as well. And you Paulo, where can we find you on online?
Speaker 3
So my therapy practice is that the Good Therapy Practice.co.uk and the business and visibility coaching is at Scarlet Thinking.com. And yes, hallo. I'm out and about on social media, Instagram is my social media of choice. And, and they're Good Therapy Practice.
Wendy Kendall
And Paul is also an author, and I have a copy of her book, do your own pr.com. But no, well, it was a.com at one point, but the book is just called do your own PR. So I'm gonna have to write a book. Yeah. So I can keep up with you guys, I reckon. All right. Thanks so much for your for sharing your wonderful experiences and your insights and your knowledge this morning. I know that I'm sure it's going to create a lot of conversation in our various groups and everything. So thanks so much again. And yeah. See you next time. For the next episode of the inspiring psychologists breaking the mould a private practice
Michaela Thomas
podcast. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, bye.
Wendy Kendall
I'd love to hear what you think about the inspiring psychologists podcast. So please take a moment to leave a review and give us a rating wherever you listen to podcasts. It makes a massive difference in helping us to reach new audiences. If like me, you're feeling inspired and moved by the private practice stories in our podcasts, please spread the word across your own networks, and why not encourage your colleagues and friends to listen to the podcasts to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes. Please be sure to subscribe to the inspiring psychologists podcast. You can find out more about all my guests from series one at our website. Inspiring psych.com That's inspiring. P s ych.com.
