Wendy Kendall
Hello, and welcome to Episode 8 of the Inspiring Psychologists: Breaking the Mould a Private Practice podcast. And I'm really pleased to welcome today some really great colleagues and friends who have been working with me over the last few years who have integrated movement and mindfulness in the body into their psychology practice. And I think I really wanted to host a discussion with these practitioners because I think it's important when we're thinking of breaking the mould of private practice that we realise that what we're doing is also pushing the boundaries of how we practice psychology. But anyway, I'm sure we will, we will get through it, get through the discussion. So I'd love to welcome to this podcast, Dr. Cat Baverstock, Dr. Kirsty Kennedy, and Dr. Kirstie Fleetwood Mead. Hi there, everybody. Hi, t's great to be with you. So we were having a little bit of fun behind the scenes where we were talking about how we would tell the difference between Kirsty Fleetwood Mead and Kirsty Kennedy. And I always remember it in the emails, when I'm writing to any of you that it's Kirsty with an IE and Kirsty with a y, but I'm not sure that it's not very short way of putting it. But anyway, I'm sure we will, we will get through it get through the discussion. So first things first, I'd love to have a round of introductions from all of you. And I tend to start from the top and go round. So Dr Cat Baverstock. Could I ask you for a bit of an introduction, please?
Catherine Baverstock
So yes, am I Catherine Baverstock, and I am a clinical psychologist, and have been for the last 20 years, I've worked with both children and adults in practice, both in the NHS and in private practice. And I'm also a yoga and meditation teacher. And more recently, I've been focusing last 10 years or so I've been focusing on working with trauma, and both with children and adults. So I suppose now I will be a trauma specialist as well. So that's my kind of area. But obviously, it will say, interested in the body within the context of psychology.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly. And one of the things that you and I have had discussions about which I always found find really interesting is this idea of the integration of the feminine and the masculine as well. And I think somehow, that's represented also in this kind of body approach to integrating integrating body into psychology as well.
Catherine Baverstock
Yeah, absolutely. With the head and the mind being more of a masculine element in the body, as representing more the feminine and the balance between the two. So yes, oh, we'll get into that.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly, exactly. And the thing I always come back to that you always remind me of is that it's about the integration of the two and the balance between the two as well. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. So, Dr Kirsty Kennedy, an introduction from you as well, please.
Kirsty Kennedy
So interesting here in cap talk, because already have lots of thoughts. Yes, I'm a clinical psychologist who so I trained about sort of 20 or so years ago, worked for most of my career in the NHS, including in physical health, which of course includes the body cancer and palliative care, mostly, but it includes the body in a particular kind of way. And subsequently, the last five years I've worked in private practice. I after I finished my clinical psychology training, I felt that what I was doing in my practice in in an embodied way of thinking holistically wasn't quite language by the training that I had. And I went off and joined as an embodied relational therapist or cashed out therapist. So kind of wear both hats. And the body is sort of in the philosophy in which I bring myself to the therapeutic relationship, that relationship and it's kind of runs right the way through everything that I do, really.
Wendy Kendall
That's super interesting, because I've heard you talk about training in Gestalt therapy before and I haven't really understood, I'm not gushed out therapist, obviously, I've not studied it in depth, I think probably at a module on it when I was in my second year of my undergrad or something. But I love that description of embodied relational therapist. So what's I hope that's not kind of a two big question. But what's the relationship between that Gestalt approach? I mean, I think, and we're getting it right, when I say I always remember good shelters being the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And then the embodied relational therapists, how do those things fit together?
Kirsty Kennedy
How I see them is, it's different names for the same thing, really. So how I think about your style, because it's holistic whole is greater than the sum of its parts that brings the body in. So we're not just a mind, not just a body, but we are the whole and the way that I would see the person in the room with me and therapy is through the lens of the whole, it wouldn't be looking at the body or looking at the mind, it would be holding both together. Yeah, and the embodied relational bit, is that very much, I'm embodied in a room with another embodied person. So it's quite existential, it's quite, in a way, it can be quite challenging, because we're sort of not kind of protected by sort of layers of maybe sort of professional kind of speak, it's like, or what's there while we're in the room and work with that, and the relational bits, kind of the media, so media see of it. So kind of what we create together. So it's process based, so it allows is quite energetically freeing. So what we create in that room, we then, you know, structuring the process, but it can create something more than a gaping hole is more than the sum of its parts create more than what we might have been able to see at the outset. That makes sense.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. And then getting a sense of how it feels like there's a relationship between what you've just described and also the way that we work in k in IFS with the presence of self energy and holding space for, you know, what's there at the moment with the clients parts client system, our system in that in that space, like that scene,
Kirsty Kennedy
and that's, that's the whole game bigger than the sum of its parts like the two of us the between what's created.
Wendy Kendall
on a systemic level as well then when you bring in more than one person is very awesome. Thank you. Thanks for that description. So Kirstie Fleetwood Meade. Hi, I have an intro for you, please.
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
Absolutely. So I am Dr. Kirstie Fleetwood Meade. I'm a counselling psychologist. I'm also a yoga teacher and an embodied movement facilitator. And I do lots of coaching work as well. My background is in the NHS and in the third sector since 2016. And we're working in private practice, and exclusively the last three years or so I think, just in private practice. And I specialise in anxiety, trauma, relationship difficulties, and also ADHD. It's something I'm seeing more and more of in my practice as well.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly. And if I'm correct, your brand name is also the yogi psychologist. Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely. So it's kind of right there front and centre in the in the practice name as well. Yeah,
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
absolutely. So I use so much somatic work in my practice now. So it could be something as simple as connecting to the breath or connecting to the body in that moment. I love what Kathy was just saying about the immediacy, I think that's something that I really love about it, there's such a difference isn't there between thinking about something actually really feeling it. But then I also do kind of movements. So that might be kind of standing up and doing like a small pose, or I'd be contrasting two different states. So, yeah, I use that quite a lot in my practice on a kind of day to day basis. Yeah.
Wendy Kendall
And for all of you really, why was it important for you? Whether that was professionally or personally to start integrating elements of the body movement, this more this focus on the whole as opposed to the kind of splitting down of the different parts and trying to segment and isolate various elements. Why was that important to you in your private practices?
Catherine Baverstock
I think for me, it's always difficult to separate those two things, isn't it? But I think from a from a practice perspective, I think for me working with children in particular, and then specialising using EMDR, which is the eye movement, reprocessing desensitisation, not the best title in the world, just for your listeners, so they know. So using EMDR, with children, but also with adults who were working on childhood memories, much of those memories would store, both in the mind, but also somatically. So you couldn't, in a sense, ignore the body because the body was, you know, so important, particularly for younger children as well, where most of their trauma memories are stored within the body. To ignore the body, essentially means that you can't really well certainly within the EMDR therapeutic approach, you just really can't really use it, it is a mind body practice. So, Mind Body therapy. So I think for me, it was a, it was evoked in my evolving practice meant that I couldn't ignore the body, it just wasn't possible. But also from a personal perspective, I think, the role of movement, and particularly when I became more interested in yoga, and the breath in particular, and how to include and involve the breath in, in the work that I do, became, I just began to see such good results. And so I think sometimes just that feedback from your clients helps you to realise that that's such an important part. And the breath being, like the bridge between the two between the mind and the body. And in fact, you know, that's what pranayama in yoga means. It means that it means the bridge. So really working with the breath as well, for me was it sort of began and then evolved? And then it became a crucial part of my work. Yeah, it's just like a Yeah, sort of evolved, I suppose.
Wendy Kendall
And when when you describe it sounds so flipping up, yes. That we would, you know, if we were in a talking therapy situation, that actually the breath is part of that. Like, no one's talking unless the breathing right. And then as you said, that's an immediate bridge back to what's happening in the body. And what you're noticing and picking up there and kind of goes from there. Really, it just seems so obvious when we talk about it. And yet, I think talk therapy. I don't see I don't see still necessarily in wider population have a discussion about the fact that seeing the psychologists might include movement, body, mindfulness, and so on. Thanks for that description cat, Kirsty or Kirsty? Well, why was it so important for you to kind of bring this en que se Kirsty Kennedy, I know that you had said that. It felt as though the way that you were working just wasn't languaging. what needed to be brought into the room?
Kirsty Kennedy
Yeah. Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt therapy talks about it being the therapy of the obvious. It was like it was the thing that was just there we are embodied beings, aren't we, and I kind of think, you know, you can't, the breath, if I had nothing else to work with, if I had no other tools, I would keep the breath. You know, without that there's not a lot else that you can do in terms of grounding in terms of sensitization. And I was thinking in terms of bridge, like, even between people in the room. If I'm sitting with someone, even if they feel something, but they don't know it, or they don't have language, often I will feel it in my body. And that's one of the ways that I might listen to it. So I might reflect back on what I'm noticing if I'm noticing my breath is caught or shallow. That might be what I'm bringing into the room. But I also think that I think psychology is very good at splitting off body and mind sort of cognitive and physical. And it's kind of it's an artificial distinction, really, but it's quite exposing, I think, or it can be to feel embodied in a room. And I think it can be a lot of shame or quite a shame based culture. And it has to be worked with quite carefully I think, partly because it's powerful that maybe we shy away from it. It means we've got to do our own personal work if we're going to be able to be embodied in the room with someone and we're gonna have to work on passionately You know, we don't want someone's body under the spotlight, we want to be with them. We want to, we want to be relational, we want to be fellow traveller with them. And I think the power of it may be as part of how we've sort of shied away with it, because it's kind of brings us right back to the ontological, the existential, it's like that we actually even exist. And sometimes we find that difficult, but it can birth such possibility and such vitality and such energy. And if we don't bring the body in, we're quite suppressed. And like cat says, you know, a lot of what we hold our psychological patterns of pre verbal, you know, what we, what our body expresses, often, we don't have words for our excellent explanations for and some of its intergenerational trauma as well, you know, some of what my body will be carrying, will be part of what the generations before me brought to the table and, and in terms of their resources as well. And it's like, if we can unlock that. It's like therapy, coaching becomes 3d, it's not to D anymore. We're not sort of just skimming along the surface, but we are really bringing something right from the depths of who we are. And the power of that, for me, is just amazing. Really.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. Yeah. Like once you get an inkling that that's a possibility, how could you not bring that in? Right?
Kirsty Kennedy
It feels sort of taboo, though, I think what Kat was saying about the feminine maybe, certainly, when I was thinking, psychology training, I felt, you know, a bit uneven still, it's a bit more, I'm just learning to bring it out and talk publicly about it, because it feels a bit counterculture, in terms of psychology. I guess as we all have those conversations, then, you know, it helps us stay shame it, I suppose, or bring it out into into the open a bit more.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. There's all sorts of thoughts going off in my head. And I'll resist kind of going down any bunny holes right at the moment. But for me, there's also big links here with regenerative practices and thinking about the so this whole topic of how we break out of the mould so that we're accessing resources that we have that are not, and when we're accessing them, as opposed to extracting them, if you see what I mean. So I can say, I won't go down that bunny hole, I'm going to come across to Kirsty Fleetwood Mead.
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
I always have lots of thoughts, lots of thoughts going on, and saying, but I think, I think for me, it's just this idea that we we really experience life so deeply through our bodies, like for example, and I think that does come into a lot of day to day language, but it's just not really embodied or felt in the same way. So for example, with heartbreak, you can people describe actually feeling that pain in their heart or with gut instinct, or sometimes you say, I just knew it in my bones, for example. And so we have these phrases. But then I think actually, in such a busy fast paced lives, a lot of the time, we're so disconnected from what's actually happening in our bodies. There's that famous quote, which I'm going to paraphrase, but something about, if you listen to your body, when it whispers, you don't have to wait for it to scream, something along those lines. But I think that's so true. People come with severe physical pain, for example, and there would have been so much happening before they got to that point, or kind of severe burnout. But we're so disconnected from what's happening in our bodies. And it does seem so simple. And yet, it's so important. It's so vital. So my own personal journey, where I think I was I was doing my doctorate, and I was recognising the power of my own breath, work and yoga practice, and then just thinking, Wow, it's so wild to me that in my teaching and my training to be a psychologist, that there's very minimal training on being connected to our bodies. So I just found that quite Yeah, just really quite shocking. And I think traditional psychology tends to be so focused on thoughts and what's happening in our minds, and I think can really neglect the body. And so I was so passionate and starting to do further training exploration to bringing this more and more into my therapy practice. And actually, I'm not teaching yoga now, but I was teaching yoga for many years. And I would also be weaving in the psychology elements to my yoga practice as well. So kind of trying to overlap them as much as possible. And I think being connected to your body, it just really gives you the power of of your intuition, which is just so incredibly powerful, isn't it and, and more agency, but also it gives you that that pause so that we don't go into that habitual reaction, but we can actually choose our actions. So it's so powerful. It's so simple and yet so powerful.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, so I think The thing that I'm kind of relating to a lot in terms of my own journey as an occupational psychologist and heaven knows, as an occupational psychologist, like there's no role for the body at all. You know, when I think about places where the body is not encouraged, except in very formulaic ways that might that would include the organisation, right? The the embodiment, or people access to mind, you know, mindfully paying attention to our body, I think is one of the things that is in contrast to burnout, culture, hustle culture, don't listen to your exhaustion, you know, all of the all of those kinds of toxic elements. And it really stands in contrast to when I think about some of the things and thinking with how do we create regenerative businesses and regenerative practices where this topic of interbeing, which I know is, you know, its its topic in Buddhist philosophy and in yoga as well, I think and but it most definitely is, from a systems and ecological systems point of view, thinking about how we are all connected, paying attention to the ways in which we're connected, and the embodiment of that connection as well. And so for me, what you're describing is that one of the roots to creating more regenerative businesses is bringing the body in as well, because that's one of the things that we've been most disconnected from. And I remember, Oh, I think it was in one of our earlier podcasts where I think it was the one where we were talking about mental health entrepreneurs. And, you know, lo and behold, if you design your psychology practice for health, and for mental health and physical health, then funnily enough, the rest of it kind of follows from there. And I was really taken with this idea that, like, of course, obviously, we should be designing organisations so that they sustain life. That's, that's what a life giving regenerative business is about. And, and then there were some discussions on LinkedIn about how do we, you know, how do we look after mental health in workplaces? And it's like, well, tell you what, build your organisation to support physical and mental health, and take it from there, take the rest of it from there, don't just make it an add on, like doing this as an add on is not a thing, just put it in, in the centre of it. And then the rest of it anyway, I'm having a bit of a rant now. But it just really made things make a lot of sense to me the way that you've described the fundamental power of this, it's not just about bringing the body in, it's about that integration. So which comes back to your point cat that you started with. So cat, when you were when you were thinking about, you know, the feminine element, the masculine element, and we talked about these kinds of archetypes and so on. And what's been your experience of kind of unravelling and unpacking that with clients?
Catherine Baverstock
That's an interesting question isn't that? I think from a from a kind of, in a way, I don't mean to separate them. But for the moment, it from a from a physical perspective, helping people to get in touch with their senses and with their bodies and with their feelings in a way that feels manageable, is quite, is quite can be quite revolutionary experience for people. It sounds so simple, but yet, it's not always as simple as it seems. Because we've been rather conditioned out of our somatic experience and into our minds, certainly as psychologists we are, but I think generally speaking, we are too. So I think bringing people into their bodies and into their senses on a physical level is very powerful. And then as that process unfolds, people then are able to connect psychologically to their intuitive systems. So are able to, you know, as as Kirsty Fleetwood maples, talking about you know, being able to connect with that kind of gut instinct or that inner knowing I call it that that then gives them a kind of access to another hole. kind of world of possibility and empowerment and connection. And so developing this sense of inner knowing, and this intuition is, for me the more feminine aspect, and the part that we're rather conditioned away from or out of, because it is so powerful, and and sometimes can feel a bit overwhelming, but within the context of a safe therapeutic space, can really be so transformational. And that's when you get the integration and the embodiment, and people being able to access part of themselves. And I suppose that, you know, sort of connects to ifs and work that you do, as well. There's lots of connections, and actually, everything does connect, but you have to go through this process of letting go releasing, and letting go some of this conditioning that we've experienced, I feel around trying to find all the answers through the minds, right, yeah. Which, you know, of course, psychology as a discipline has, is it has advanced in many, many ways. And but I think the body has been neglected. And I think it is time to bring that back online, so to speak, in that more holistic, integrated, embodied way. So that balance between that kind of, you know, the mental functions, the masculine element in my, in yogic terms, in energetic terms, and the more feminine element element is all about balance for me. And the more in balance you are as a, as a being as a person, the better your health, the better your well being. And the more able you are to thrive as opposed to just survive. And that goes back to what you're saying about the burnout. So for me, it's all about balance, rebalancing, those elements, those different parts of ourselves, both the mind and the body, and how they work together in harmony.
Wendy Kendall
If you really see how it becomes a bit of a revolutionary thought, though, when we're talking about I guess, reconnecting with that embodied sense of ourselves with our gut feelings, with our intuition with all of those things. means that we're less willing to sacrifice all of that on the altar of whatever, right at the altar of somebody's idea of success. And that means someone's not able to make, you know, to take advantage of that to exploit people's bodies as a resource anymore. So I can imagine that there's also, I think there's pushback and possibly kind of resistance to that, that we have internally as well, that we've internalised from the external culture, I don't know if any of you kind of have anything to speak to around that, you know, that inner resistance that people might have to feeling more embodied and feeling like they value that and want to use the power of that more.
Kirsty Kennedy
I think you're right about it being challenging to outside of us, you know, if we've been programmed to be a particular way, and maybe to desensitise our needs, then if I get connected to my body and what I need, then I might have to change something out there. You know, I might change something about my work environment or my life. And that's the risk, the alternative might be that I can just numb myself and carry on and be productive, until of course I burn out. So, you know, whilst it's a really healthy way, I sort of think about being in touch with our body is kind of an act of civil disobedience in a way because then we can, not only can we think for ourselves, but we can feel for ourselves and we're not any longer going through the motions of what we think we ought to do, you know, analyse beliefs. And like Kirsty FM had sort of said before, if we can slow it down enough to connect with what we who we really are, then we aren't going to go quickly through those repetitive patterns that are habitual, but we will stop and we will become aware minds. And we can then make a choice, we can make a really clear decision, which can be amazing and transformative and it can be challenging because, you know, sometimes we're going along being no more blind to what we're in until, you know, the pain becomes big enough that we can't, but actually if we can catch it earlier and be in tune with ourselves, we can self regulate. And we can make things work for us we can we can create the world in the way that we want to and for me, that's a moment by moment process, you know who I am is created in every moment. So I can recreate in this moment, if I can choose differently and that sort of power of sitting in a room, you know, that relational bid comes in, because we can change things we right now, you know, we can begin that process. And it can happen in lots of little steps. It doesn't have to be huge, doesn't have to be explosive. But it can be tweaking, you know, we can tweak it right now. And we can start a different direction of travel and get right back to who we are, you know, get home, you know, our bodies.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. And that just reminds me of, of why it's so powerful in talking about being able to self regulate with something that we have access to every day without having to spend money, which is our own body. You know, in that sense, we don't, we don't need to buy or require or consume things to regulate. We have everything. We are enough. Right?
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
I was just thinking what you were saying earlier, Wendy, about kind of hustle culture. And I think even on a personal level, you know, even being a psychologist and having these practices doesn't stop me from being human. So I can really identify with that poll. Sometimes if the part of me that just wants to be, you know, living a really simple life in the south of Europe, having a lovely, gentle time. And the other part of me that like know what my practice to be worldwide, and sometimes that can feel like another constant tightrope that you're walking, and other Kirsty was just saying there about connecting to values, I do a lot of value based work in my practice as well, because I think it's so important when you start to connect to your intuition. And then you think, Oh, actually, what is important to me, what do I value I don't really know. And so actually, that feels like, for me, and my practice is really important part of that. So I think coming back to your values, and of course, they are always changing and evolving in just the same way that our bodies are always feeling different moment to moment. So I think it's just a constant, lifelong practice. I think being in touch with your body and what's happening in it. And I think what you might need at one time in your life could be a completely different thing to what you might need a month, a year, five years later. So being able to be connected to that and then to be able to adapt, I think is also such an important thing as well.
Wendy Kendall
The thing just occurred to me as well the as you were speaking there, Kersey that, that that becomes a vehicle then for connecting with the rest of the world, right in a different way. And so it takes us out of these artificial environments and takes us out into the world and connecting with other people and being out there and being a part of, of all of that as opposed to you know where a lot of us and Kersey again, I agree with you, we're not immune to this as psychologists, but where a lot of us are, you know, on our screens, working indoors and so on. But having that more living connection with our embodied selves, inevitably, then is the vehicle for moving into different environments and different places and not being artificially disconnected from everyone and everything else. So I don't know if if you also find that that way of working somehow leads to more relationships, connections with the outside world for you, your clients and so on. Cat I saw small a small smile there.
Catherine Baverstock
Yeah. You know, you and I've had conversations about this, this sort of thing before, but I think one of the things that was occurring to me this morning was, you know, what happened during the COVID pandemic? Where Yes, on one level, we all got driven to our screens, and ended up you know, being quite isolated and all have that the negative side of it. But I think there was also for many people that draw back to nature. I don't know for everyone but certainly the people that I spoke to there was a draw back to nature and actually, there's something for me about when you become more connected to your senses and more connected to your body, you naturally tend to seek out more nature based places, not always but but but certainly in my experience. So that then you are naturally then becoming more connected to who you are as a as a natural being on this earth and connected to more of the rhythms of life and the you know, the natural the seasons and just those things that sometimes when we are, you know on that burnout cycle that hamsterwheel We kind of become quite disconnected from exactly. And then we can access that power of, you know, the medicine, the power of nature, which is also so healing and so transformative. And so I think there's some, you know, you talk about going into different spaces, that's what came to my mind that you perhaps more naturally start to move into different spaces, because of sometimes being forced into those spaces, but also, you know, sometimes things happening, which then make you more aware. And I think a lot of people do become more more aware of the disconnect, in fact, between, you know, their minds and their bodies and how that can lead to ill health. And burnout. Yeah, so So yeah, I think I think you're right, I think people do, naturally then gravitate to different types of spaces. And I know for me, I really enjoy going out on the water, paddleboarding. So that was that was something I sort of got into more over that period. So yeah, I think we all do it in different ways, don't we?
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, I remember I had friends, several friends who were saying, I mean, we were connected by Facebook at the time, but obviously, people were allowed outside. And they were saying, you know, actually, we've discovered these new walks around that we and these new like natural places where we never knew that this existed in our local community. And I think that's so interesting. And it's part it's not part of the prevailing narrative about that time at the moment, that a lot of the prevailing narrative about that time at the moment is, oh, we were all locked up. And we were all disconnected from one another, while there was a period of of that, but also, there was a period of us, therefore, and everyone talks about the beautiful weather. Oh, we were all in our gardens. We all did this. We all did that. We all did the other in terms of getting out. And I know there were issues around, you know, are you allowed? Are you really having an exercise walk? Or are you meeting up with your mates because you've got your Starbuck coffee in your hand and all the rest of it. But I think it's really interesting that at that time, there was actually also a net connection with the environment around. Right? Yeah. What did you did? Did you find yourself going out for walks and things like that?
Kirsty Kennedy
During that time, there's something relational and kind of, just in life, it's like, if we are really connected with our body, if we feel we have sensation, then we can have more relationship either be it with other people, or the outside world. And I was thinking, in the last few years, one of my happiest memories is of lying down on the grass with one of my oldest childhood friends. And we kind of lay I don't even know what we talked about, you know, something and nothing. But it was just joyful. And I kind of find myself sometimes thinking, I really would like to go and lie down on that bit of grass with her again, and just talk about stuff and look at the sky. And I guess in some ways, we come back to that sort of real fundamental who we are. And I suppose it's no accident that that was a childhood friend. Because you know, the bits of us that have been there always, are still there, aren't they? Maybe the bits of us that enjoyed nature, when we were young before we worried about technology, or, you know, utility bills, and all of that. And for me, there's a great joy in reconnecting with that, like, even if I'm not doing anything, or even if I'm sitting with someone, even if I'm in my practice, and we are having just a moment where it's just this connection, and we're down to something that's really important to them, or really core, you know, that we can make a change with and, you know, I think that might be among the biggest joys of life, probably. And we can so easily numb ourselves from that and busy ourselves and, you know, get into our heads, and there's a lot lost there, I think.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so when I, when when it came to integrating a lot of this, I mean, we talk about the joy of it and the connection of it and how accessible it is and so on. Did you find yourself having to push back on any stereotypes? Any resistances you know, this whole topic of breaking out of the box? How was that kind of breaking out experience for you? What comes to mind with that? And Kirsty fleet with Mead you're not away?
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
Well, yeah. When do you know me? And you know, I'm a big fan of breaking out of the box in lots of different ways. So actually Leave for me it kind of kind of doing this kind of work that's a bit different. And being a private practice, I think kind of suits me, suits me down to the ground. I just really love that it's possible to do it in so many different formats. So not only am I bringing my kind of yoga and breath, like into psychology, and I'm taking, you know, vice versa, but then I'm also taking this kinds of work into different places like I've done workshops at festivals and snuck it into corporate the corporate world. In terms of you know, people who work in finance or unexpected, stand up and see people that have heard these.
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
But I think, I think certainly, Wednesday, you mentioned my name at the yoga psychologist, and I think, you know, people maybe from a more corporate backgrounds, and again, I'm generalising but sometimes there's a bit of a, oh, I don't want to be doing yoga, and I'm not I'm not coming I'm not doing which is very much not what I do. But I think there can be a bit of a misconception around that. And I don't know sometimes, because I do do quite a lot of coaching work as well, I get people who come to me and they say, I really want to do coaching rather than therapy. But actually, when you unpick what they want from coaching, they're actually talking about wanting to be more productive and do more and achieve more, but actually what they need is slowing down and reconnecting to their body. So I think there's definitely a lot of education. And I think what Kat was talking about earlier about feeling. I think there is some some stigma around working with the body. I wonder, even in the psychology world, whether it feels like it's not sufficiently evidence based, and a bit nebulous, sometimes I think, I use a lot of EMDR, as well. And I think for me, that's been such a wonderful kind of overlap and kind of bringing it all together. But this is the kind of somatic work I do. I don't know, it's feels quite hard to evidence, something like that. And I think sometimes we can get a bit caught up in in life guidelines and meeting needing things to be done in a certain way. But actually, I think just kind of trusting yourself as a practitioner, I think has been so important.
Wendy Kendall
For me personally, the quantitative scientific method is all about splitting things into variables and trying to control each of them so that we can get the stats to work essentially. Doesn't, you know, it kind of, it's interesting, and it makes kind of sense that it's hard to get certain kinds of evidence, you know, quantitative, have you met this significance level, because we're talking here about something that flies in the face of quantitative methods, which is, we're talking about integration, we're talking about covariance, we're talking about all these other things. But as you said, you know, even within our science, quantitative method has been so vaulted compared to qualitative methods and qualitative approaches, which, you know, something like this would be much more amenable to those kinds of risks, methods.
Kirsty Kennedy
We're not asking people to just sort of believe what we're saying or buy into, under saying, maybe particularly with body stir, saying, try it, to try this. Why move what happens for you. So in a way, you know, people get it, you know, makes really intuitive sense. I think when you start practising it, and if you are curious and hold a sort of an openness to it, people will see what their truth is how they see it. And yeah, not looking at creating their own evidence.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly that and I was just going to say one of the discussions that we have in regenerative practices is about other forms of knowing that are not just about you know, this, this, you know, this this kind of westernised scientific method that has been kind of formulated over the last 100 years or so, in the social sciences. You know, what are other forms of knowing? Well, our personal intuition, our personal knowing is also a form of knowing that's important in this, you know, this whole scenario. Can cat How about you?
Catherine Baverstock
I feel about that. Exactly. I think I think there is quite a lot of fear, surrounding access to the body and the power of intuition. And as you say, there's been, you know, this kind of site this small qualitative, hypothetical deductive model of exactly, science, Karl Popper. And now we are working with different paradigms. I think there is a paradigm shift coming, which is more balanced, because of course, we need the quantitative evidence. But we also need the qualitative phenomenological evidence as well, or data, whatever you want to call it. So again, this is another balance, isn't it? It's not about one or the other. It's about these these things working together. But there's been a dominance of the evidence base scientific paradigm. And in psychology, particularly, and almost like a fear or a resistance, or, as, as Dr. FM has been saying, you know, there's this, this, perhaps, need for following schedules and frameworks. And that's not necessarily all bad. I mean, EMDR, for example, has a schedule and a framework, but it also has space between to be able to work intuitively and in more body based embodied ways. And I think for, for me, it's about a balance between those different ways of working and being able to access your inner knowing and your inner intuition, both as a woman or as a man is so powerful. And I think we're missing a trick by not harnessing the power of that. I certainly from my experience,
Wendy Kendall
yeah. Awesome. So kind of last, chunky question, which is, what are your hopes for the future? And then it come to you first cat, because you were just alluding to? Yeah,
Catherine Baverstock
where are the where are my hopes? I think, I think for me, it's about trying to create a more balanced, holistic and integrated psychology, where, you know, different paradigms are held, you know, it's possible to hold different schools of thought different ways of being and actually integrate them dare I say, so a more integrated psychology, which does take into account the body because it's so important, and treat people in a more holistic way. Because I think that's where people can truly do the work and move through transformative and growth experiences, and thrive. And in the positive psychology world, they talk about flourishing. Yes. Which I quite like that idea of kind of, you know, growing and opening and expanding and flourishing, that whole kind of growth mindset. Yeah, way of being which, you know, really does add to people's wellness, and help people become more balanced. So I think for me, it's about, you know, opening, opening our minds to different ways of working and, and balancing these different ways of, you know, collecting data and different approaches to therapy and what have you rather than it has to be done this way? Or that, that actually integrating them? And using information from from these different hearts?
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. And yeah, I guess in that sense, in organisations, for example, we wouldn't feel the need to talk about physical and mental health as two separate entities that and you know, there's be spoke the whole wellbeing of people and the organisation and Kirsty Kennedy, what would what are your hopes for the future? A
Kirsty Kennedy
lot of what Cat says resonates and I sort of take your flourishing cat and raise it to liberating as well. Oh, wow. And the world kind of needs that as well, you know, each of us as individuals needs that, but also between us and if we can grow that in the systems that people around us, the organisations, you know, dare I even say the politics, you know, the, the, you know, we need Planet Earth needs that. So, I guess kind of trying to question the status quo.
Wendy Kendall
Maybe our MPs need more yoga in their lives. I love that. I recently came across, it's new to me, it's not a new thing. But there is a very exciting book that I have on order called liberation psychology, which is speaking to what you were just describing there, Kirsty about bringing in other ways of knowing other methodologies, other phenomenologies and so on, and a bit like what you were describing cat you know, all these different ways of knowing that we can hold space for all of them and maybe look at where we can you know what the integrations of those might be. Okay. Last but not the least Kersey fleet with me. What are your hopes for the future? In this car?
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
I resonate with what cat and Kirsty were saying. I think for me it just quite simply, I hope it continues to grow. I think there's definitely a momentum that's gaining in this type of work, but I think it is still relatively niche and in therapy. So it'd be amazing to just to know that people are starting to integrate even kind of parts of this into their work. And I think for me, the thing that I'm most passionate about in terms of mind body connection is that it generates people to feel authentically themselves and to really connect to a more meaningful life and when you just imagine that on a on a global scale of people feeling more authentically them and connecting to meaning and values. Well, that can not be a bad thing.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly. Yeah. Love that. Okay. So staying with you, Kirstie. Where can we find you on social media and the internet?
Kirstie Fleetwood Meade
Yes, so my website is theyogipsychologist.com And my Instagram is where I'm most active. That's the.yogi.psychologist
Wendy Kendall
Awesome. Thank you, Kirsty Kennedy, where can we find you?
Kirsty Kennedy
You can find me at Dr. Kirsty Kennedy.co.uk. Or you can find me on LinkedIn.
Wendy Kendall
Fabulous. And Dr. Cap Baverstock. Where can we find you?
Catherine Baverstock
I met drcatherinebaverstock.co.uk, which is my more traditional psychology website. And you can also find me as The Goddess Psychologist on Facebook, and Instagram.
Wendy Kendall
I love that brand. I love it. Thank you so much for such a rich conversation today to all of our guests and do have a look in the show notes if you want to get connected with and stay connected with anyone that was speaking today. Thanks so much to all of you. I learned a whole heap of stuff in this in this conversation. I'm looking forward to listening back and going through it again. So thanks so much for sharing your expertise and your insights today. And see you all around. See you next time. See you next time on the Inspiring Psychologists: Breaking the Mould of Private Practice. We'll see you in the next episode. Bye everyone.
