Wendy Kendall 0:11
Hello, and welcome to the Inspiring Psychologists podcast. I'm your host, Wendy Kendall, a psychologist and private practice Coach. And this is episode 12. Moving Beyond Extractive Models: Building a Psychology Practice with Social and Environmental Impact. So we find ourselves at a unique juncture in time, the IPCC released its synthesis report for the sixth assessment report earlier this year. And it underscored the imperative need for a swift and just transition to an economy that is centred around well being and not only or merely gross domestic product. And so for me, you know, hearing some of the press around this and following this very closely, this raised a really essential question for me, which was how can our private practices serve as a Vanguard for that change? You know, if we're really talking about massive transformation, if we're talking about moving towards a well being economy, then for me, a role as psychologists and therapists and our role in in terms of leaders of private practices, has an enormous role to play in this. So I figure that the world of private practice is is right at this juncture, too. We've seen demand for mental health care rocketing, there's a shortage of providers, and that's persisting. So it's clear that trend, traditional models of private practice need a drastic reinvention. Investors have been pouring money into scalable platforms. But many of them others have essentially monetize that distress, both in direct perm payments for services, but also in harvesting data to sell about its clients and at the most benign use to advertisers. So to me, that's, that's a system based on extraction. So I'm thinking about, you know, how do we change? How do we be the change that we want to see in the world? You know, I want to think about how we change models of private practice that foster isolation and burnout among providers. And that's both toxic and it's also unsustainable. So we have a responsibility, I think, to challenge the status quo in private practice, and to reimagine what private practice can be. It's not simply providing templated solutions for working within that broken system. But for me, I think it's about shaping a more regenerative way of working. So we're delving into this crucial topic today. And that's why I've invited Dr. Tara Quinn-Cirillo, a charter counselling psychologist and founder of the Conversation Starter Project, and enhancing mental health well being in the community. And Dr. Rachel Yates, a clinical psychologist and founder of Climate Parenting. So welcome to you both. Hi, there. Good morning. Hello. Hello. Thank you. Hi. So thanks so much for being here. I know that both of you are very busy practitioners. And so I was delighted to connect with both of you, I think also through LinkedIn. And, Tara, I've seen you around a bit because obviously you have the adversity psychologists podcast. Rachel, I just got to find out about you and I like lect on you and DM you through the LinkedIn to like, Hey, can you come and be on this podcast and you were really gracious isn't and kind of an accepted, you know, after a discussion about what it's all about and kind of agreed to come on. So could I ask you both for a bit of an introduction, please, Tara, would you be happy to go first? Oh,
Dr. Tara Quinn-Cirillo 4:23
absolutely. So I'm Dr. Tara Quinn-Cirillo. I've been a psychologist for over 20 years. I do run my own private practice. But off the back of the pandemic in 2021. I set up a community project which has now just become a community interest company. So a not for profit, just trying to tackle loneliness, isolation and emotional health issues after the pandemic free to access for community people around walking talk sessions, but we also do psychoeducation and helping the community to help each other really. So a really nice way to get my NHS roots of philanthropic me that wants everybody to be able to access thing to also meet with psychology and bringing those principles to the community and helping them understand how they can empower themselves to manage their emotional well being.
Wendy Kendall 5:13
Yeah, I'm going to come back to, because I'm really intrigued in the story of how a private practice also somehow led to or maybe it didn't lead to that, you know, what was the kind of origin story of of that, and just going to come over to you, Rachel, first of all, could you give a bit of introduction into yourself as well and handle centre climate parenting
Dr. Rachel Yates 5:39
show? Hi. I'm also a clinical psychologist, I qualified as in London, as a clinical psychologist, and are now based in Barcelona. And since qualifying, I mostly worked in children's services in the NHS, mostly in the field of autism, and become kind of increasingly concerned about the climate emergency, particularly since my own little girl was born a couple of years ago. And so kind of made a shift to thinking I want to work in some form relating to that. And also, the move here meant that I was kind of thinking about new directions anyway. And I've taken some training in climate change coaching. And I've kind of tried to combine my background and working with parents my own experiences as a parent and climate and climate change coaching to support parents who are concerned about climate change, and the destruction of natural world more generally, in terms of the biodiversity crisis, as well. And it's something a topic that stirs up strong emotions in people, I think, once you really begin to look at it. And so, and I think parenting brings additional layers to that in terms of sort of thinking about what our responsibility is to our children, in terms of their own emotional well being, but also how we kind of engage with thinking about supporting societal change for their future. And a lot of people are increasingly worried about this, even though it's a topic that we don't talk about as much as Yeah, because you'd think that would reflect that level of concern. And so I kind of thought about lots of different ideas that came around to this idea and and now offering an online coaching programme for parents, and we're just piloting the first group at the moment. And it's an idea of kind of bringing people together to share kind of formed community around those concerns have a place to open up conversations that are often sort of not had, and think about how we can support our own emotional well being, but also our children's, in the context of, of what's happening in the world. So I'm really happy that we're having this discussion, because I think often these topics, we stick with thinking what politicians can do, what climate scientists can do, but I think in some ways, they've solved the problem already. And what's left is kind of economic and political, but it's definitely behavioural as well. And so I think as psychologists, we, we have an important part to play that maybe we don't think about that as often as we, we could.
Wendy Kendall 8:05
Yeah, and something that I think is really important there that I learned from following and listening to, I think I went to an event, an event that was being run by the climate, climate, poaching alliances, are getting the name right. And the main thing that I took from it was, we need to talk about this, we need to start opening our mouths, because a lot of people are really concerned about this, I see it as you know, the two sides of the same coin, which is, you know, the problem that we've been dealing with is rampant extraction and exploitation for many decades. And part and parcel of that is the environmental destruction that goes with it, and the rampant inequality that goes with it, which speaks to what you're addressing here and a lot a lot of what we work with as psychologists and what we really care about. So for me addressing, you know, thinking about moving beyond extractive models moving beyond an extractive world, focusing on wellbeing, like we're right there addressing it and have been for a long time. So Tara wanted to come back to you and kind of work through a little bit this origin story of you know, being in private practice developing a brand that surround the adversity psychologists which to my ear starts to speak to this topic a little bit as well. And then that as you said, you know, experiencing what was going on through the pandemic and developing this now moving into a CIC so can you share some of that story with us please?
Speaker 2 9:50
I think like most people when that first lockdown happened, I was trying to move my was face to face clinic online overnight, having a panic, don't know how to use Zoom, or you Been a zoom. And I also felt a little bit helpless. And I'm sure a lot of psychologists that will we've got skills, things that we could use. So I basically set up a small little Facebook down in Sussex group to try and help people with a kind of emotional fallout. And I ran that for about a year or so during 2020. And then I thought, actually, when we were allowed to start to meet face to face outside, I thought I can do more. So basically, I wanted to reach more people. Not everyone can pay privately to see a psychologist, I need to get paid, I have bills to pay. So I wanted two things to meet together. So the philanthropic element is me setting up what we're just originally walking talk sessions in my local park for adults, where people come and connect safely. A lot of people haven't seen anyone in months or had people hadn't left their home in several months. But people who've lost people all sorts, you know, the whole emotional health people with pre existing mental health needs who didn't have access to much during the pandemic. So I just started walking talk sessions, I didn't apart with the book in case no one turned up the very first day because I thought I'm gonna look like an idiot. So all of my vulnerabilities are out there. And now they're even more out there. And it was just more so I took on a business partner. And now we have this really fantastic model. But what I want to do, and it sounds incredibly cheesy, but it's not meant to be is to empower people to manage their own well being. So I use the psychologist, part of me as a framework to manage risk and crisis and all of those things, lots of safeguarding protocols, obviously, you can't just walk and talk around a park. All sorts of people come from all sorts of walks of life. So I can bring those Principles of Psychology, but I help people, I don't actually do any intervention. The intervention is just the pathways I have behind it and the referral agencies that refer into us, people walk around the park and talk and they have to do that themselves. So that's where it's different. So it's bringing all those principles of research and theory, safeguarding risk crisis management to help people safely do that. And it's free, and it's remained free. So for the past three years, that's what I have to obviously run my private practice as well. I've done everything in a philanthropic way. Nobody, I have volunteers that work for me, now, everybody does it out of the kindness and the goodness of their hearts really. And that's what makes it special. It's quite magic. If I can say people give and the people that come the regulars that come you don't have to book you just turn up. So we take away all those barriers, no booking and having to cancel. We don't start on time. So all of those little things look accidental, but they're on purpose. And people give as much as they get, and I couldn't have planned for that. So lots of people who come Now help me to facilitate and run them and help other people to feel safe and confident. And we just talk when we talk about anything. There's no structure. It's not a mental health group. It's actually just helping people with the kind of grassroots and emotional well being, which is what we need plenty of mental health groups out there. It's just a free service. And people like it, and they come back and it just seems to work.
Wendy Kendall 12:54
And the so I started writing notes like furiously as you were talking there, and there's so many things I want to pick up on there. In last week's episode, we were talking about relationships. I don't know if anyone's heard, or saw that or if they've listened to it already. But yeah, we were talking about Vicki, you wandered up to Vicki, you Anna was talking about therapeutic community? Yeah. And we had a little bit of discussion on LinkedIn afterwards, around that. And the thing that really struck me there was how, how we've got like, there is a healing potential be built into humanity, which is at the power of community. Right. Yeah. And, and that's part of the life force that has, you know, brought us to, you know, 600,000 years of evolution or whatever it is. I'm not an I'm not an anthropologist, so you. But I think for me, that is one of the things when I'm thinking about as a psychologist, how can we resource communities so that they can switch from languishing towards flourishing utilising their own resources? Absolutely. And to me that is about that's really regenerative, because that's about creating the conditions for life, as opposed to this mechanical mindset, which is about oh, we need to be in there controlling all the variables in order to create an outcome, which is the way that we've done things a lot in mental health services, right. Yeah. So that really spoke to me and what I love is your focus on removing barriers to that thing happening.
Speaker 2 14:49
Absolutely. We've all been there. I've booked something and then not be able to go or feel I don't want to and I've got to cancel and then what does that do to the next time and for a lot of people that come on I walk into Access, particularly, they have a history of mental health issues, or, you know, they may have some neurological issues if we have people with additional needs, and you don't want those barriers. So, you know, we're always there, it does mean that we often stand freezing cold in the rain, and maybe one person comes, maybe 20 people come, but we remove those barriers, we don't cancel our walks, either. They're really simple things, actually, that have just evolved. You can't plan for those things when you're setting up projects. But actually, they're the elements that work best because it takes away, you know, and if you're that person, and it's I've got permission to share, I've had wonderful example of people who followed us for months, I had one woman who sat in their car for several weeks before she got out and joined one of our walks. And that's the thing that I want to get out there that if we had to start in a group where you sit down on chairs, she wouldn't have come in, and we got to 1005. And we start at 10 o'clock, people come 10 past quarter past the hour, they join us halfway around, they can leave at any time. And those are all barriers. Usually, when you think of traditional mental health groups or services, you know, you've got to be there for the whole time you're in a room. And even though you can open a door and go, there's more psychological barriers there, whereas we meet in the open. So there's a lot of safeguarding that goes on. But once that's in place, and we've done that work, it makes it super easy. And that's how it should be. And that's what facilitates people feeling safe, secure, and coming back again as well.
Wendy Kendall 16:19
Yeah. So the phrase that came up for me, which I jotted down was creating conduits for kindness and contribution. I know it's opening channels, as opposed to making things happen. I mean, I'm not saying you're not making things happen. But it's like this opening of channels, as
Speaker 2 16:39
we call it, organic things just kind of happen. And then my partner and I kind of look at each other and go, Wow, that really works. And then pretend we've sorted that all along. Yeah, that's the magic of it. You have to be very vulnerable doing this. I'm sure you'll agree ratio, when you're trying something a bit new, and it's outside that model of what Yes, just do and are we going to be judged? And psychologists do like to judge each other? Sometimes I will throw it out there that you know, is this robust enough? Is it scientific enough? Is it you know, going to be what I'm supposed to be doing. But if you can kind of just lean into some of those tricky things, we can do some really great stuff and communities. And the idea is that if my partner Shirley and I stopped tomorrow, the people would carry on doing this that, you know, if we're not there week, or we're on holiday, and some of them are gone. Yeah. It still works. And those people go away and tell other people and you know, the idea with our model is that we want it then to be taken on board. Yeah, it'll roll out because it's so easy. It's almost too simple. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Wendy Kendall 17:39
I love that. That okay, that that's made millions of light bulbs go off in my head. So I will try and rein myself in at that point, because it's always a risk with me. Rachel, need to come over to you for kind of your origin story. Why was I mean, it's almost sounds like a daft question, really, when I'm asking a parent ways climate parenting really important. But tell tell us more about the story, like the origin story of
Unknown Speaker 18:07
this? Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 18:09
Yeah, I can relate the sense of what we were just discussing our community because definitely, personally, for me kind of finding a community within which to sort of think about these things has been really helpful for me. And I hope that that's what also works and seems to be the feedback sessions that we're running. But in terms of yeah, my own journey, I kind of always cared about environment. I remember learning about the climate crisis in school, so kind of over 20 years ago, but I always was somebody who kind of wanted to work with people, and it felt like my route to go down psychology route. And so then I think in within the NHS sort of takes up all your headspace and kind of thinking room really on top of kind of life with family and friends, and so on. So I never quite found my space to address like environmental concerns. And I thought beyond kind of the demonstration and maybe doing things in my personal life, but then my daughter was born 2021 And it was around the same time as one of the more recent IPCC reports came out. And I was reading things that were weren't entirely unfamiliar, but they were kind of much more serious than they felt before. And suddenly, they were really deeply personal. And it kind of was this mental shift for me that I have to somehow make this my work because otherwise I'm not going to find space for it. And I spent a lot of time thinking how can I get involved involved in a dressing in button dressing this using the kind of skills that I've got and diving into exploring the topic as much as I could? And kind of realising that although the science is really scary, there's a lot that needs to happen in a very short space of time, sort of having a child makes me think of that time in a very different way. So suddenly, it's this needs to happen before she will be finishing primary school, if we're going to really address this and so it has to be now I can't wait for me to sort of To be sleeping through the night, for example, we have to try and get on board and do what we can. And but also, it's something where the scientists have told us what needs to happen. And they've done that part of the jigsaw. So it's how we can help shift people into being able to think and talk about this stuff. And I'm doing what needs to happen. And I read a really great book called The Future which is, which is talks about two different futures. One is which where we carry on as normal, and the other future where we really get on board with making the changes that need to happen.
Wendy Kendall 20:39
Sure, that's on my desk. It's millions, but sorry.
Speaker 3 20:43
No, it's It's so interesting, it really makes the picture of what it might be like and different scenarios, very visceral. And I think sometimes it's really difficult to imagine the negative scenarios of what could happen, but understandably so. But it's also hard to imagine the positive future we're trying to move towards. And it's so important to visualise that as well. And it made me realise that actually changes happening, change is difficult, but we don't get to avoid that, it's going to be changing the way we live one way or the other. So we might as well get involved in trying to make that change something positive. And I think connecting dots for me that there's so many issues that are so interconnected. And if we get it right, and if we really make the changes that need to happen in terms of the environment, it's it's not only climate and nature that solves itself in terms of kind of clean air, and water and, and all these kinds of things. It's also loads of other interconnected issues in terms of kind of education, equality, because it all has to be addressed together. And so yeah, I sort of played with lots of different ideas for a little while and bounced around that came around to this feeling that I've worked with parents previously. And it felt like the right the right space for me to get involved in. And also, I think there's a lot of emphasis on children and, and what sort of young people are doing growing up. And I've always worked with children, but I really feel like it's not children that need to be solving this partly because there's not time. And secondly, because we don't want to sort of be putting that responsibility on their shoulders. And so parents felt like parenting was the right place to sort of be thinking about this issue for me.
Wendy Kendall 22:18
And I'm just thinking about the generational aspects there as well, when when we think about climate parents, like, my, my kids are now young adults. And I still feel like I'm climate parenting in that sense. And, you know, thinking about them approaching a time when they might be thinking about having children, and therefore I'm becoming a climate grandparent in that sense. So do is what you're offering also incorporating those multigenerational elements. So how might they be doing that?
Speaker 3 22:54
It's so interesting, I definitely have kind of tried to advertise it so that it's open to grandparents as much as parents and carers and really anybody who cares about a child and they're like, yes. But actually, it's been all mums. So far in the group that I've, that I'm running, but I'm really I'm hopeful that that will extend out, I think, I feel like the climate space is tending a bit like psychology to be quite female. But hopefully, there's ways that we can broaden that.
Wendy Kendall 23:20
Well, we'll just start where we are, and we'll grow it from there, right. And one of the things that I think both of you alluded to was that, you know, if we think about the scale of the problem, we can become really overwhelmed. And we can end up feeling powerless to make a change, like what difference does the thing that I'm doing, I know that I've been there as well. And, you know, one of the quotes that I saw that is like my, my beacon of eternal hope was now I always get the name wrong. But I've mentioned it in the podcast before, it was this statement by a Nobel Prize winning chemist. And he basically said, at the point of maximum chaos in a system, you have the maximum potential for islands of coherence to develop, and to influence and tip the whole system. So just just because it feels maximally chaotic, doesn't mean there's actually a moment of real potential there for the smallest unit to start to influence the whole and for me, that was like the the life raft that I cling to this idea that actually, at a grassroots level, doing what we need to do creating our so called islands of coherence, we can be the ones to start to really make a shift at a big systemic level. So that was my life raft if you like then it's the still the thing that I cling to, but for you what, what helped you to see? You know, Rachel, you mentioned reading the future, we choose that book. And it's giving you the, you know, the bad scenarios, and it's giving you the hopeful scenarios. You know, for both of you, what was the thing that helped you, too, that helps you to hold on to the hope, I guess, coming to you, Tara,
Speaker 2 25:26
do you know I'm just thinking actually, the original Facebook group that I set up, obviously, people can put comments on, so you get a real sense of what people are going through. And though it's a very small thing in comparison with the holder of the UK, gave you that intimacy, that snapshot. And then with a project like mine, it's really tempted to get hooked up in how big it could be a way you could reach. And my business partner is really great at keeping us really grounded and slow. But just going this is what people locally need. This is what's missing for them at the moment is what they're going to or guessing what they're going to need when we did start to you know, reduce the amount of lock downs and I'd be able to kind of reemerge again. And going forward, just every week, every time we do all of our walks ourselves, we still go to all of them is that you take that time to talk to people and hear what they're going through what they're anticipating. And that's what guides me. So it's less about kind of research and literature we keep ahead of that. But for me, it's the people, you know, what are these people coming along? What do they want? Because it's very easy to get lost in what you know, you know, the wider society is saying we need in terms of mental health, tackling loneliness, we need that. But it's the bottom up bit as well, isn't it? It's the grassroots, as they say.
Wendy Kendall 26:39
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of focusing on fundamentals and responding to I think, one of the things that I've also learned and read about and observed and work with psychologists as they do this is that intimate connection with local community and the responding to needs? The solutions are in there, basically. Yeah,
Speaker 2 27:09
in this month's psychologists magazine, they the whole edition is centred around the Brighton conference, the European psychology conference. And the theme of that is around kind of bringing psychology singularities and there's some spectacular quotes are speaking to that the weekend. And just again, it's that it's getting out of your comfort zone. As a psychologist, we'll all we all know, especially as practitioners, psychologists, you know, what psychology looked like? Coming back to what I said before, am I doing okay, is this is this proper work, you know, for the word of a scientific word. And there were so many different academics at Brighton University talking about that's exactly what it should be, you know, that we need to kind of move away almost from this fear that to be a psychologist is only this one mould? And yeah, doing something else is somehow not proper. And I think that I've learned a lot with that, you know, the two things can coexist, we need the research, we need the theory, because that's what I'm drawing on to be able to run my project. But also I need to be in the community, being vulnerable hearing from people trying things out, some things don't work, sometimes we need to make tweaks, sometimes we get it wrong. But that's part of it. And you got to be quite possible to do that. Yeah, awesome,
Wendy Kendall 28:21
Rachel.
Speaker 3 28:23
So I definitely relate to that in terms of the feeling of want, needing to connect with others and needing and I think doing this, I feel like I found a place where I can be more authentically myself in some ways, because it's genuinely where I'm from. And I'm kind of working with the people that I'm working with. And, and so the bit that tension then between when am I a psychologist, and when am I part of this group, but but it's still a think it's those relationships that really helped to provide hope and, and seeing how ripple effects can happen. So I also have a book group that I run, which is a completely free thing for discussing climate and nature books and documentaries. And, and having read that future, we choose book, I didn't put it on the list for the group, and we read it. And somebody then read that and fed back that they'd kind of discussed it with a friend of theirs, who'd read it, and now put it on the kind of required reading, for course that she runs. And that was something that just gave me a lot of hope, the sense of something very small than I do, just really because I felt like I needed it. And then there's ripple effects that you don't kind of even necessarily know, so often think, Oh, how can I, what's the big thing I can do? Because this topic is so big, it needs such a big action. And I somehow need to have an idea that's big enough, but actually, there's no one person who's going to solve all the problems out there. And we just have to sort of think, I think, what are our what are our skill sets and passions and how do they marry up with what's needed and do a little piece, and I think accepting that that's that's the role and as long as I'm doing my piece of it, that sort of somehow trying to believe in other people will be doing the same, and that will hopefully lead us in the right direction. And I think a sense that touches on what you said before when the bits like this change, change isn't necessarily linear. So even though I kind of it feels excruciatingly slow change in terms of climate and nature, it is something which is building kind of energy, I think and a bit like tipping points in negative tipping points in terms of catastrophe. And this topic, really, I think social change can happen in that way too. And, and one thing can lead to another, and suddenly, something was much easier. And I think we've seen that in terms of things like renewable energy, the prices of coming down. So I mean, that's economic, but I think socially, it can happen in a similar way. And small things might seem like they don't make a big difference, but they can in terms of the way people think about these things. And then they open up people's minds to thinking about bigger changes that that could be possible.
Wendy Kendall 30:42
That's true. And as we're thinking about that, you know, this topic of the small things that we can do, there is so much negativity out there about the people who are doing the small things, you know, there's, there's always those, you know, wherever they've come from those trolls on social media, who are very happy to kind of, I mean, I think most of them are probably from troll farms, you know, and all these kinds of things, these influencing campaigns that apparently, you know, people run these businesses. But you know, that sense of, oh, you've, you've been doing X, well, that just means, you know, that means nothing, because, but actually, the small things are the things that are going to take the system, you know, which we really, really can support the small things, as you said, Tara, it's, it may be taking a walk around the park with people you might not have met before. You know, it Rachel, it may be having conversations about books that you've read, and suddenly they're, they're on a, they're on a curriculum somewhere and shaping and influencing ideas there as well. And having those kinds of seeding effects. One of the things that I talk about when I'm working with psychologists who are themselves kind of thinking about where they want to make their contribution, where they you know, how they want to shift their private practices to this, I don't know, to this more explicit kind of regenerative focus is this experience that I've shared with you and I call it that, you know, it's highly scientific. It's called the timber, timber, timber timber wash care model. And you didn't anticipate me telling you about this when you came on this podcast this morning. But this is the experience of exponential change, right? Because regular use in the field, getting slow, but an exponential change curve at the bottom, we saw it with the flipping pandemic, right, we would see these curves, as you know, the Financial Times just kind of plotting these curves and showing us and we would see that little tech start to go up and then wash care. So the idea that we should give up because it feels slow, is like another one of those things, I'd love us to kind of push back against because the experience can feel slow. But that that can also be an exponential change curve in the making. So yeah, I don't know if you've kind of come across some of those experiences, as well as have where it feels slow. And then suddenly it can shift or change.
Speaker 2 33:27
I know I certainly have. So one of the things I think that was a really important for me, and I think if there's somebody watching today who's new to independent practices, psychologist, or, you know, further down the line is that I had the stable base of my private practice. So that was kind of just by itself, I didn't have to worry so I could take more risks with my philanthropic time. And you know, being realistic, you can't just start a project if you need income, you know, we need income, we can't live off air. So that I was very fortunate because I'd already set up my practice it'd been running for quite a while and then that allowed me then the vulnerability and the time to just go right I can try this I can do this and just being really realistic with you know, when we look at perfectionism and burnout, you know, it's really easy, isn't it to think I can do this I can do that. And then you can see all these fantastic people Instagram doing great things, but it's got to be practical as well. So you know, allowing yourself time can I do this? What can I afford? And that helped me keep restructured I've only got this time to do this walk. That's why I walked around certain days at certain times because that's when I don't work and allowing that but also I think having good support network. So I have a really good support network with my project, which is really crucial because it keeps you grounded. There's some days I'm very frontal OB at times there's people that know me. Oh, great, right, we should do this right. Let's think about this next book slowing down again, that's great, but how's it going to fit in realistically? So, you know, I think this is the stable base of your private practice. You know, making sure you're not stressed because your incomes dependent on what you're doing is already probably boring things but really necessary things to think about. You've got people to sound off ideas, people to bring you down sometimes and say that's not gonna work or not sure. So I think that's really important. Yeah,
Wendy Kendall 35:09
yeah. Thank you for that, Rachel, any experiences around that exponential change
Speaker 3 35:15
in terms of the practices, I suppose? Yeah, a little bit in terms of just feeling like, I sort of started dipping my toes in the water and doing what felt like it needed to happen in small ways. And very similar, actually, in some ways to tar I've kind of had to do it alongside life and parents and my main job that I'm still doing remotely in order to kind of breathe income. So it's the moment because I'm much earlier in the phase. And we're trying to work out how to make us complete work in terms of a business model, or how the funding might come through. So it's definitely been that kind of jumping in step outside my comfort zone and try and do things. And as a result, ended up having so many amazing conversations. And I think particularly in this area of climate, and there's a lot of people who are really engaged with it, and want to see things happening as fast as possible. And as a result, it's really generous kind of community and so kind of dynamic and energising. And so I've found that just sort of started talking about things, having conversations here and there and, and ideas then come from that, and people will make links, and you suddenly find you're being invited to talk on the podcast or starting I think is the thing. I have found quite what you're not meaning to have this exponential curve, but certainly, it's not a planned journey. And it's not steps that necessarily I had in mind from the beginning. But I think gradually, if you do what feels important, you can come together.
Wendy Kendall 36:44
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And so a couple of times, you've alluded to the fact that this can sometimes feel about like, it's like we're going against the grain. Like we're we're taking risks and appropriate risks, to do things differently. And sometimes we have to work against kind of perceived barriers or myths. Have you come across that as well, I know, Tara, you've you've alluded to that a few times. So just wanted to kind of bring in your experiences around. I mean, we talk about here breaking the mould of private practice. And you know, I'm including your CIC in that overall idea of private practice. But what else have you experienced in this element of needing to go against the grain somehow?
Speaker 2 37:48
Shall I go first? Yeah. Sorry, Terry. Yes, apologies. I think for me, it's, I do a lot of act in my private clinic. And I love that kind of Endeavour. For those people that may be new to that, which is a value based therapeutic intervention. And one of the questions that I absolutely love is that end of life questions, if you look back over your life, what are you going to think about the decisions you may or didn't make? And for me, even though at times I still struggle with is this robust enough? Is it you know, am I doing psychology, right? You know, what are the HCPC gonna say about this? Is it proper psychology is, for me, looking back, I want to reach more people. And I can't do that just in my traditional private practice. Not everyone can have access to private psychological treatment. So I want to reach more people. Those are the roots. So I used to work in the NHS for many, many years. And I missed that you know, that people can have free access, that's my value. And I want to reach more people. And I want to empower them today. And that kind of cascade effect, as you say, and also that ripple effects. So my thing is looking back over my life that I know, this is the right decision for me, I want to be able to look back and go Yeah, I'm glad I did that. And I know that I will be even though it involves a bit of vulnerability along the way. And my absolute value is I can reach more people. So that philanthropic part of me, is what keeps me going at times when my inner critic goes, no, no, no, not sure whether you should be doing this. Yeah. And
Wendy Kendall 39:19
is it? Is it just in a critic? It are, you know, how's there any pushback come from outside as well?
Unknown Speaker 39:28
Good question.
Speaker 3 39:34
I don't know. I feel like if again, similar kind of challenges and things that I've come through and similar inner critic that's sort of asking those questions. And I think a lot of it is personal. I don't think I've ever felt pushback. Externally about what I'm trying to do. I don't know if you have Tara.
Speaker 2 39:55
Yeah, no, I haven't which is really interesting. Is this purely in a critic but then sometimes what I'm I see is when I'm flicking through various publications or psychologists magazine every month thinking, Oh, maybe I should be doing that. Or, you know, and I think one of the things that's really important for me is obviously the research, you know, the psychology is the science of mind and behaviour. So we're scientists practitioners aren't me at heart is that actually in a community project like mine, it's very difficult to get data at the moment because I need ethical pathways to do that, which would then actually stop people to come along. So at the moment, I've got this whole chicken and egg thing where at some point, I have qualitative data that people are happy to give me, but I'm going to need some more robust data at some point, but then that actually involves me having to change the model of what I do. And that's across roads. So there is that external influence in order to get more funding grants to show people how this is working, I need that data. And as a psychologist, I know how to get it. But actually, it's at odds at the moment with my model and the ethics of what I'm doing with the people coming along. They don't want to be filling in questionnaires. I don't want them to be seen to be pieces of data. Some of that, again, maybe in a critic, but actually a lot of us factor that one to feel that if they come along, they're going to have to be asked certain questions. Because at the moment, that is not part of our model. So that I guess is kind of where perhaps the environmental or the external stuff meets my inner critic as well.
Wendy Kendall 41:16
Yeah. I mean, my background is applied psychology, so did lots of stats and research methods. And of course, a lot of our frameworks or research frameworks, as you said, our funding models and so on. More heavily bias towards the logic code deductive type of science, right? Have you collected all this data? Can you show you know, effect size and all of these other other elements? And my thesis was a grounded analytical thesis, it was living systems model. This is like 1995 96 that I wrote this. And what what we were looking at there is theory generation, as opposed to theory testing now that in the grand scheme of things is as scientific as the logical detective. But the system itself being kind of set up in that way, focuses more on the, you know, have you got the data have you got this and so we have an environment, like, like you said, a system of regulation, which is not unlike the issues that we've got in terms of our system of regulations anyway, that is, that is then hampering your ability to both continue and to get funding. And so that requires a change in the mechanism as well, of how we support these kinds of projects, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I hate it. Sorry, Rachel,
Speaker 3 42:50
just the kinds of numbers that we're looking at as well, in terms of kind of, I certainly find within what I'm thinking about doing is, there's maybe some outcome you might measure that would be more traditional kinds of things. But there's also other outcomes in terms of this sort of ripple effects and things that are much harder to kind of get a handle on. And it makes me think of within, I guess, communications around some of these topics, and how we kind of try and persuade people on climate, particularly I'm thinking about but all sorts of topics, in some ways. more drawn to Steven Mayer to data. And so I wonder whether, as well as thinking about the types of numbers we tried to collect, maybe there's maybe there's other ways that we can engage with people who might be interested in sort of funding or supporting these kinds of projects through stories as well as through data?
Wendy Kendall 43:34
Yes, yeah, exactly. So. So finding those alternative sources of funding of people who are more in tune with the different kinds of data, especially more human forms of data, like stories. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. So anyone out there who feels like funding any of these projects, who's very happy to kind of base that on the stories and the, you know, much more organic forms of data that we can gather, which aren't destructive, of the, of the living system that that is being supported? Because, really, Tara, that's what you're, you're referring to, you know, you come in with this intervention, it's going to destroy the living thing that's been growing.
Speaker 2 44:18
Yeah. Yeah, and word of mouth is crucial with community projects as well. We rely a lot on people sharing other people come along, because someone else has told them so if they're, you know, something as simple probably doesn't sound much to someone who is, you know, awarding grants. But, you know, for somebody to say, Oh, actually, but you do have to fill this questionnaire or didn't like me also don't know what we're triggering off. And we're asking people so that, you know, the ethical practitioner also has to step in and go, Is it alright to be asking this and these questions? Yes. So there's a lot to think about there. Yeah,
Wendy Kendall 44:48
awesome. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you about hopes for the future as well. Rachel, Can you still hear me because I don't know if your feed is Can Can you hear me a little bit for wasn't on the video. No worries. But as long as you can hear, and we can pick up your audio, we'll be alright. So thinking about your hopes for the future, I'm going to come to you first, Rachel, because it feels like hope is a big part of the brand, that you're developing, you know, the story that you're developing around climate parenting, what are your hopes for the future for the development and growth of your project? But also, just in terms of the impact? And this whole topic of climate parenting as well?
Speaker 3 45:34
Yeah, definitely, my main notes are very existential, I think, in terms of kind of, can we, as humanity pull together and make the changes that are needed. And I see lots of change happening. So that gives me hope. And I think that hope is sometimes also something that we don't need to wait to appear that we need to sort of just get involved. I think through action through doing things, that's how we start to create. And that's one of the ways I think about hope, I guess, on a personal level, and in terms of my projects, smaller personal scale, I guess I definitely hope to be able to roll out the group that I've started in a way to reach more people. And sort of find that sustainable model of funding for me, that's going to allow me to do that longer term and to spend more time on it. And so, as I'm open to thinking about different collaborations, or different ways to connect with others, who are interested in similar topic, or topics where we might be able to work together, I think that the pilot that I'm running at the moment is feeling like a really positive experience. And there's lots of kind of conversations that are opening up around that. And so, yeah, that would essentially be my hope to be able to just keep going and do more and make it more my full time. Kind of Endeavour.
Wendy Kendall 46:53
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love the idea that action, action creates hope. Yeah, of course it does. When you say it, like it's like, Oh, right. Yeah, cool. We need to just do, and then we'll get some hope. Fantastic. And Tara, for you, what, what are your hopes for the future in terms of how things might grow and develop with your project safer. So on the bigger scale,
Speaker 2 47:21
on a kind of a local scale we are, now we're a CRC, what we're going to do is go into local businesses, and DB wellbeing training for them, but then they can donate to a free community session. So we want to move from just doing our walk and talks to community wellbeing sessions that are still free at the point of access for communities. So it's helping businesses understand more about the mental health and emotional health and loneliness, and all the needs of their community. So they can choose particular topics that they want to cover or particular populations as well. And that we have a model that we would love to be able to roll out because it's such an easy, we know we've done the kind of legwork as you say, it's a really easy model to roll out to other local areas, you just need the right kind of people to be running it, you've got to be able to give, and people give, and you get from that as well. So it's a really two way relationship. And that's what I want to see it's about. So again, it sounds a little bit cheesy, but that people don't always need to just go and those old school models or I need to go to a professional to look at my emotional health. But we also help people develop their well being baseline, and that they can learn what as you said at the beginning when do what they have in them already to help them cope with adversity. And our project is a little stepping. That's why it's called conversation starter. We're just a stepping stone, we signpost people on to other services as well. They signpost to ours, it's about kind of harnessing what people have inland and sometimes they just need a little bit of help accessing that. And that's what we do.
Wendy Kendall 48:49
Yeah, fantastic. So I'm kind of my brain is kind of summarising what I hear, hear a little bit, which is, you know, talks about conduits to kindness and contribution. And I think, in a sense, the projects that you've both created are conduits to kindness and contribution. But what I also really hear is the importance then of partnership, and creating community through partnerships. And essentially, what you've both created are kind of blueprints, if you like, where, through those partnerships, other you know, other benefits can can be kind of transmitted, you know, they're conduits to other benefits, then they're like little, little roots, little pipelines. Yeah, wonderful. I love that so much. I'm gonna I'm going to be going back through this podcast and kind of right in my nose because I've been so into listening to it. But like I said earlier, it sparks so many ideas, and I really hope I can see that we had some reaction on social media where people have been really fascinated by this calm The session as well. Thank you so much. I want to just finally ask people ask you where people can find you. So Tara, where can we find you?
Speaker 2 50:10
So I'm kind of everywhere. But the easiest place to find my everywhere is just drtara.co.uk. So you'll find all my social media and my conversation projects data is on there as well.
Wendy Kendall 50:22
So just remind us the title again, please. So the project is called the conversation starter project. Fantastic. Rachel, where can we find you?
Speaker 3 50:34
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. And my website is www. Climate parenting.com. So you can find things about the workshops and other things I'm doing on there. And also their climate and nature book group that I mentioned. It's called the Blue Planet Bookshelf. And that's free. And that's available on a book clubs website. And you can just sign up to come along there.
Wendy Kendall 50:57
Okay, fantastic. We'll make sure that all of those links are on the show notes for this podcast. Thank you so much for sharing these projects with us today and all of your thoughts and experiences. It's been really generous of you to spend this time and I know that this is going to create a lot of conversation and and a lot of inspiration and hopefully a lot of hope as well. Thanks again. And yeah, see you. That's the end of our series one that was our series finale. So thank you so much for being here. And looking forward to sharing with you what will will be coming up in series two, keep your eye out for that. And yeah, thanks a lot everyone and see you next time.
